Jinni Tech claims RED Compressed RAW patent filing is invalid

[BTM_Pix]

31 minutes ago, Waynes said:

The octopus, the end of a few companies?

Looks like it'll cost a few squid.

[Video Hummus]

I would encourage everybody to read the Patent Repeal filed by Apple. It’s incredibly detailed (like a lot of this patent language is) but even as a non expert they layout very clearly that there was prior art to REDs patent and even some of the language is clearly and unambiguous similar.

 

[Andrew Reid]

35 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

I would encourage everybody to read the Patent Repeal filed by Apple. It’s incredibly detailed (like a lot of this patent language is) but even as a non expert they layout very clearly that there was prior art to REDs patent and even some of the language is clearly and unambiguous similar.

Indeed, very interesting stuff. They are arguing against the RED patent being novel and thus un-patentable. Is that right?

[OliKMIA]

Hi Andrew,

I sent you a PM via FB. I'm not qualified enough to talk about the patent things and there are a lot of unchecked facts at this point but this story about defamation and libel against you and EOSHD is very surprising. I would like to try to post this on Fstoppers because I believe that freedom of speech means something but I want to get your side of the story first. However, I understand that you may not want to spread this beyond your forum. I totally respect that. Let me know if you are interested, Fstoppers is not NYT or the Guardian but this is an important matter that should be covered, even at my very modest level. Best of luck with all this.

[Andrew Reid]

Very much appreciated sir. I will get back to you OliKMIA. I have to pick my battles very carefully and make sure that revealing hidden truths does not make me a martyr. I have a nice blog to look after, some nice cameras, a girlfriend in Berlin to look out for and the last thing I want is more intimidation tactics from Jim Jannard. Reassuring to know I can rely on the support of likeminded people in the industry though, if serious trouble does come knocking.

In the latest news...

RED have responded to the Apple petition. The date of the provisional response was 15th August, which was yesterday!

Just pressed DOWNLOAD ALL.

https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/case/IPR2019-01064

[DL81]

Regarding whether Jannard knew about Armstrong’s doping (and sponsored him anyway) the question was asked on Reduser as it pertained to the integrity of the Red founder.  The thread was deleted very quickly.

[Video Hummus]

33 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Indeed, very interesting stuff. They are arguing against the RED patent being novel and thus un-patentable. Is that right?

Yes, essentially. They are arguing the two prior patents (Presser and Molgaard; among others) represents prior art and show the lack of novelty in RED’s patent.

Whether the PTO finds it obvious enough we shall see.

[Otago]

So Red have sold $250M of Cameras and a total revenue of over $500M, according to these documents. That doesn't seem very much considering Arri did €415M last year alone (across all their businesses I know, but still!), no wonder they have to sell the cards for so much ?

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Just read the thread, what a rollercoaster one.

Just waiting for the revelation that the real patent holder for internal RAW is Ebrahim Saadawi.

[ND64]

25 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Just read the thread, what a rollercoaster one.

Just waiting for the revelation that the real patent holder for internal RAW is Ebrahim Saadawi.

Damn I didn't expect to laugh so hard in this thread. 

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, DL81 said:

Regarding whether Jannard knew about Armstrong’s doping (and sponsored him anyway) the question was asked on Reduser as it pertained to the integrity of the Red founder.  The thread was deleted very quickly.

In fairness to Jim Jannard he had longstanding personal and business relationships with both Armstrong and Greg LeMond.

It always difficult to get caught in the middle of mutual friends that have fallen out and are in conflict with each other and even worse when you are forced to make a choice between them.

Do you choose the three time clean TdF winner who's life is being ruined or the seven time dirty TdF winner who is trying to ruin it (and the lives of several more people) to save his own skin?

I doubt we need to a poll to find out what most of us would do.

[Ed_David]

2 hours ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Just read the thread, what a rollercoaster one.

Just waiting for the revelation that the real patent holder for internal RAW is Ebrahim Saadawi.

Ebrahim saadawi sr or jr?

 

 

 

[majoraxis]

Hypothetically speaking, assuming Apple wins and some of Red's patents are no longer valid: will Atomos products become cheaper to purchase?  Does Nikon finally roll out Pro Rez RAW recording HDMI implementation?  Does Blackmagic add/turn on Cinema DNG as a recording option?  Do camera manufactures implement RAW recording without concern? Etc...

What are the upsides of Red losing for the pro / semi pro video camera user/purchaser and why should a potential cinema camera owner care (practically speaking, moral out rage aside...)?

What are the downsides of Red losing?

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Just read the thread, what a rollercoaster one.

Just waiting for the revelation that the real patent holder for internal RAW is Ebrahim Saadawi.

Holy F@#×. Almost died laughing. 

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, majoraxis said:

What are the downsides of Red losing?

Lost revenue for RED. Upset brand loyalist. Possibly RAW capture in prosumer devices, maybe even (i)phones. Maybe a new CEO for RED.com INC. All speculation of course.

 

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, majoraxis said:

Hypothetically speaking, assuming Apple wins and some of Red's patents are no longer valid: will Atomos products become cheaper to purchase?  Does Nikon finally roll out Pro Rez RAW recording HDMI implementation?  Does Blackmagic add/turn on Cinema DNG as a recording option?  Do camera manufactures implement RAW recording without concern? Etc...

What are the upsides of Red losing for the pro / semi pro video camera user/purchaser and why should a potential cinema camera owner care (practically speaking, moral out rage aside...)?

What are the downsides of Red losing?

Short answer: No. 

[BTM_Pix]

58 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

Hypothetically speaking, assuming Apple wins and some of Red's patents are no longer valid: will Atomos products become cheaper to purchase?  Does Nikon finally roll out Pro Rez RAW recording HDMI implementation?  Does Blackmagic add/turn on Cinema DNG as a recording option?  Do camera manufactures implement RAW recording without concern? Etc...

I've not seen price hikes on Atomos products since it was announced so that would suggest to me they are absorbing the licensing cost rather than passing it on for now so likely no difference if thats the case.

With Nikon, it depends if its the patent that is stopping it but as Apple's partner with ProRes RAW you would expect Atomos to be somewhat in the loop about the purpose behind Apple challenging the patents and to have had advance warning. If it is stopping it then thats not great as it means it will require the conclusion of the appeal which could take some time.

If Apple's appeal was successful then, yes, Blackmagic would be able to switch Cinema DNG back on but its by no means a given because they might have their own farther reaching reasons to stick with BRAW to establish it as a standard.

58 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

What are the upsides of Red losing for the pro / semi pro video camera user/purchaser and why should a potential cinema camera owner care (practically speaking, moral out rage aside...)?

It depends on how much you interpret RED's patents on compressed RAW having stifled other manufacturer's developments in the time they've had them.

Twelve years is a long time to have had this stuff off limits and the supporting technology of processor speed and storage speed/capacity has long since been available to allow other manufacturers to do it.

The big question is whether the will and the market was there for them to do it and whether the patent thing is just a red herring ?

Clearly, the patents where as challengeable over a decade ago as they are today so has it only taken the will of a (big) company actually coming up against the restrictive nature of them now to mount the challenge?

I'm pretty sure that companies the size of the likes of Sony, Panasonic and even Canon had the resources to have challenged this a long time ago if they really had a vested interest in doing so to clear the way for specific products.

So whether the GH6 would get internal RAW if Apple wins this appeal is probably still as much to with their own internal purposes as it would ever have been.

Crucially though, for camera buyers, is that it would no longer be a convenient shield for manufacturers to hide behind when challenged about drip feeding features.

58 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

What are the downsides of Red losing?

Aside from the flippant response of industrial designers specialising in faux military product housings suffering a downturn, there would inevitably also be a price to pay for RED's reduced profitability which, as is the way with this world, would likely arrive in the form of reduced jobs, investment in R&D and support.

Although, it could be argued that the flip side of the downturn in income and the sting of losing might actually stimulate a positive response in the longer term in terms of the focus in finding a different way in that new reality.

The elephant in the room of course is that a loss for RED would mean it was a win for Apple but thats a whole different can of worms.

 

[DL81]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

In fairness to Jim Jannard he had longstanding personal and business relationships with both Armstrong and Greg LeMond.

It always difficult to get caught in the middle of mutual friends that have fallen out and are in conflict with each other and even worse when you are forced to make a choice between them.

Do you choose the three time clean TdF winner who's life is being ruined or the seven time dirty TdF winner who is trying to ruin it (and the lives of several more people) to save his own skin?

I doubt we need to a poll to find out what most of us would do.

I don't think the point was about choosing between friends.  If what the documentary alleges is true then he chose to continue sponsoring a drug cheat and helped to fund that fraud.  Profit over principles, which fits into everything that's seems to be going on with Red recently.

[BTM_Pix]

32 minutes ago, DL81 said:

I don't think the point was about choosing between friends.  If what the documentary alleges is true then he chose to continue sponsoring a drug cheat and helped to fund that fraud.  Profit over principles, which fits into everything that's seems to be going on with Red recently.

I was being very, very generous in my description of what that scenario entailed

As for its veracity, as I say, the information in the film has been written about in several different books by David Walsh and also featured in various interviews with Betsy Andreu and, as yet, I am unaware of any action being brought by anyone over it.

On balance, I have to say that if I was going to go after someone for defaming me, I certainly think I'd choose to go after people alleging that I'd helped enable Lance Armstrong's decade long deception than a camera blogger who satirised me a little bit but thats just me.

[Andrew Reid]

What a dope