Jinni Tech claims RED Compressed RAW patent filing is invalid

[Ed_David]

5 hours ago, Gavin Greenwalt said:

As someone who was once threatened to be "sued into oblivion" for legally reverse engineering Redcode and publishing the details of the tech I have no love for Jannnard's legal team either.  But this seems like bullshit and Jinni Tech woefully ignorant.

The patent is on redcode and I clearly remember redcode not being announced initially. There were questions of how good of image you would get if you couldn't afford the fiber optic module and huge raid. Then at NAB and in Gibby's interview they added the secret sauce. At that point they said they were giving Graeme free reign to use whatever tech he thought would be best with zero legacy consideration so they also didn't prescribe a solution to him.

Red has an overly broad patent on something that is IMO very obvious "hey what if the computer you record jpeg2000 to was the camera itself and not tethered!" no duh. But it appears to cross its i's and dot its t's. 

BREAKING:  Apple has sued Red over their patents on red code and their 4k raw camera

Here's info I have learned so far via anonymous source via personal view:  http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/22255/red-surpassed-beats-by-dr-dre-margins-record-selling-you-just-consumer-ssd-/p2?post#Form_Body

From apple vs red lawsuit

 

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/PTAB/IPR2019-01065/Inter_Partes_Review_of_U.S._Pat._9245314/docs/05-06-2019-Petitioner/Exhibit-1003-3-Ex1003___Expert_Declaration_Redcom_314.pdf

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/PTAB/IPR2019-01065/Inter_Partes_Review_of_U.S._Pat._9245314/05-06-2019-Petitioner/Petition-2-Petition_for_IPR_of_US_Patent_No_9245314/

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52mk7rbgykdyk8v/AAB096zoYR9MoGSxVnUT4HgDa?dl=0

 

LEGAL DISCLAIMER:

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION FROM WHAT MY RESEARCH IS - THESE are just my opinions and my research into the legal documents I have read above. 

 

 

 Apple’s claim:  Patents invalid because tech came from Mølgaard and Presler- video image processing can be applied to Presler’s video camera

Presler from Silicon Imaging cmos camera and redcode seems to possibly be modified from some existing tech already by Molgaard

 

 

Key figures in Apple vs Red lawsuit:

Ari Presler - Chief Tech Officer at Silicon Imaging

Claus Mølgaard, Vice President of Research and Development - Phase One now at Apple

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ari-presler-a250ba4/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/molgaardclaus/

Seems red buys tech, patents as their own, then sues people for using it.

[Andrew Reid]

Fascinating Ed.

My opinion:

Loos like Jim Jannard went after Apple over RAW and this then landed on his door step.

Apple has a lawyer British imaging scientist on $600 per hour

Hunter just became the hunted.

[ntblowz]

Hmm how come we didnt hear any news about apple vs red?

[Ed_David]

another angle - THIS IS JUST MY RESEARCH and I don't know if true,

but probably the russian angle - don't know much about this - but interesting about this camera:

 

From https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/33792-kinor-digital-4k/

 

 

"KINOR digital cinema camera:

Yes, It's real.

The guys from russian forum discuss with chief designer ( Alexander Kitaev) of Kinor and we have many interested information.

http://www.kinor.ru/en/products/camera/dc4k/

NCH CMOS Sensor

Resolution

Max 4600x3400

DC 4040x2300

Speed

0,01-200 FPS /DC mode full frame

DUAL 3G HDSDI output

Direct 4K RAW/RGB uncompressed recording on Kinor Flash DCR Recorder

High resolution DLP LED viewfinder

Optional High Speed onboard recorder up to 1,2 TB

Full HD High speed option with 2/3 inch lenses 600fps

(for broadcast market

100-600 ISO

12 Tstop in RGB mode

PL mount & SLR lenses (Canon, Nikon, Pentax Adapter available)

Strong Alloy CNC mill case

power 12V 20W (without recorder)

2,3KG weight without Lens

 

As for me, Kinor have very good system of recording informatino from sensor at RAW format without compressing.

The warkflow can be two versions, the first version - HD 1080/25/i with outoput color YUV with pre-color correction,

the second -RAW output, Y channel at HDSDI. The recording on computer by Decklink AVI, AVI RAW .

http://cinemac.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=1484

The camera can have different configuration from simply version up to super Hi Power.

The sensor Dc2K 2380х1720 , HD 1920х1080 and 2K 2048х1152, size 22мм,

DC4K camera have sensor with resolution 4820х3400 size 25,4 мм.

The price of basic configuration of DC2K 9900 Euros, DC4K 17000 euros.

Alexander told about super high speed versions with speed 700fps.

If you will have questions, can ask of Alexander directly."

 

[BTM_Pix]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What I want to understand is:

NAB unveil in 2006 - did RED mention compressed RAW here, or at IBC later same year? Did Jannard mention the specs in interviews in 2005/2006? Did RED take sales based on a camera with this capability?

 

Ignore the date of December on the video, as this was shot at NAB 2006, and purports to be the earliest video of a public interview with RED about the camera.

Fast forward to IBC in September 2006 and I've found this video of the Q&A with the, erm, "Leader Of The Rebellion" and I've cued this up right when someone asks the question about the compression....

Prior to this section, where REDCODE definitely is described, he was actually inviting people to get in line the next day at their booth to pre-order the camera and saying how they had to that point had 400+ orders for it already.

I placed my order based on the NAB reveal where the info was slightly more nebulous but RED always used the caveat that everything was subject to change which undoubtedly covers them in terms of what we ordered but less so I would believe in terms of the patent aspect?

 

 

[Emanuel]

Interesting research and read Ed indeed.

I wonder where's Ari these days? He was very ironic and helpless about RED those days, I remember. I think that camera who Danny Boyle preferred to 35mm film to make Slumdog Millionaire going with the marvelous David Newman's Cineform codec today on GoPro side had deserved a much better fate à la Blackmagic nowadays anyways, I bet : )

On Alexander, very nice guy, but to be straightforward, they never took off other than for a very few domestic usage, though : -)

[Anaconda_]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does Apple have to gain by suing RED?

Doesn't it work in their favour if other manufacturers have to avoid REDs patents (valid or invalid) forcing them to turn to ProResRAW instead? 

[Emanuel]

The money going outside their balance sheets... ; -)

[Patrick B.]

Yeah, I’m guessing licensing costs. 

Cant believe this was filed in May and no press have covered it. 

[BTM_Pix]

The rebuttal to the legitimacy of RED's patents from Apple's imaging scientist might as well have said "In summary...This is like Vanilla Ice claiming he owns the rights to Under Pressure"

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

What I want to understand is:

NAB unveil in 2006 - did RED mention compressed RAW here, or at IBC later same year? Did Jannard mention the specs in interviews in 2005/2006? Did RED take sales based on a camera with this capability?

First non-provisional REDCode & camera system patent application was in 2008.

So what JT is saying is that if a company exhibits their work or sells it 1 year before patenting then it's prior art, admittedly their own prior art, but public domain as far as the patent office is concerned...

I hadn't read this post of yours yet... Take a look:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?77032-RAW-vs-REDCODE-RAW

Yes, REDCODE RAW was implemented very likely not exactly when announced IIRC but along 2006 as that link reveals and actually present since the early beginning also with the first camera units delivered as well when RED took reservations as mine (#111 and #647).

I am obviously sure on that one : -)

[Andrew Reid]

Indeed!

[Ed_David]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Indeed!

  I haven't researched this yet.  THIS IS JUST SOMETHING I JUST HEARD via anonymous source.  I just heard that Peter Jackson and Steven Soderbergh testified in the appeal process.   Seems that Peter Jackson was able to help get the patent thru.

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

Hmm how come we didnt hear any news about apple vs red?

NO IDEA.  In my short emailing to other camera blogs, seems that everyone is scared sh*tless of red suing them for defamation.  So everyone is quiet as hell.  Same with my anonymous source who may or may not be under NDA.

[Andrew Reid]

8 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

NO IDEA.  In my short emailing to other camera blogs, seems that everyone is scared sh*tless of red suing them for defamation.  So everyone is quiet as hell.  Same with my anonymous source who may or may not be under NDA.

Yes, we will have to speak about the facts ourselves and do it in a way that is respectful and can withstand scrutiny in court.

Freedom of speech is protected in the USA and in my country as well, the UK. Other blogs are very timid, most I'd even say were spineless. We can't rely on any of them.

Don't bother trying Cinema5D and good luck, go straight to the big US and British newspapers, tell them the facts and see what happens.

[Ed_David]

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes, we will have to speak about the facts ourselves and do it in a way that is respectful and can withstand scrutiny in court.

Freedom of speech is protected in the USA and in my country as well, the UK. Other blogs are very timid, most I'd even say were spineless. We can't rely on any of them.

Don't bother trying Cinema5D and good luck, go straight to the big US and British newspapers, tell them the facts and see what happens.

Trying, just need contacts not their REPORT A TIP thingy

from personal view post that my anonymous source alerted me to APPLE VS RED :

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/22255/red-surpassed-beats-by-dr-dre-margins-record-selling-you-just-consumer-ssd-/p2

 

"One of RED ex workers with lot of contacts inside sent me small note.

It is panic inside RED now.
They are extremely afraid considering any REDCODE detailed explanation and camera hardware analysis now.
As RED camera detailed dissection by pro engineers can unveil similar margins.
Firm is in very unstable state, as any weakness will be used by lot of companies to fight back in the raw video patents fight. And this can kill RED. As company won't be able to make enough new gear without this patents."

 

ALSO CAN SOMEONE research all lawsuits against red or red against others?  WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?  THIS IS BONKERS.  Are we witnessing the collaspe of a billionare's company due to a person in the UK who makes youtube videos with silly mario bros coin sounds?   . TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION

[Emanuel]

That is or was far to be a secret anyway. If so, it is property of Landmine so Jarred could have put that off to the distance of a click. I think it is useless to do it anyway. Once published hard to keep it unknown to not mention top secret ; -)

[Andrew Reid]

Opinion, without prejudice: It is a shame. RED had and still has great technology, all they had to do was sell and generate goodwill with creatives. All this going mental with lawyers and dodgy patent licensing fees, if that is indeed the case, puts all that good stuff in danger but after what they did to me and so many others, people like Jannard get what they deserve at the end.

According to our favourite Russian friend Vitaliy Kiselev:

Quote

And next series will be legal attack on RED most precious asset - patented wavelet algorithm

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I thought the patent is an entire camera system, not just the codec?

Filing date is 2008. When was the 6:1 or greater compression first demonstrated or sold? Were the first RED ONE cameras sold on basis that they had no RAW capabilities whatsoever?

Filing date was originally April 17 2007. Red announcing compressed RAW on April 20 2006.

The only novel things claimed are the 6:1 raw compression on > 2k. But both of those qualifiers show what bullshit the patent is. 2048px wide..obvious/prior art. 2049px... Non obvious, no prior art. 

Similarly... Everybody and their mother can imagine 5:1 compression but suddenly at 6:1 it's a new concept. ?

The preprocessing details will probably survive but the patent covering 4k raw (because cineform already had 2k) will probably die imo. 

[Emanuel]

I understand your feeling, Andrew. In any case, RAW was in Jim's mind since very early 2006 when Graeme was hired. Jarred was only an observer back to those days, as it is possible to follow here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?42602-RED-and-Graeme-Nattress&highlight=raw

 

[Raafi Rivero]

This is huge news! RED can bully little guys but now one of the five largest companies in the world has their thumbs on little Red. Getcha popcorn ready