Jinni Tech claims RED Compressed RAW patent filing is invalid

[JordanWright]

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/08/16/apple-challenges-red-over-raw-patent-legitimacy/

[ntblowz]

Newshooter just published it

 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/08/16/apple-challenges-red-over-raw-patent-legitimacy/

 

Edit: argh beat by the guy above me

 

 

[Trek of Joy]

38 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

This is like Nestle claiming it owns the rights to Vanilla ice cream.

This is the way I've always felt. The patent claim seems to be overly broad. And the comparisons to Lance Armstrong are spot on. Though if Lance was French or Spanish (Indurain, cough, cough) I seriously doubt they would have gone after him in the same manner.

chris

[BTM_Pix]

23 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Though if Lance was French or Spanish (Indurain, cough, cough) I seriously doubt they would have gone after him in the same manner.

And the rest!

Armstrong was ultimately brought down by financial and government interest cases in his own country though to be fair. SCA sports promotions not wanting to pay him huge bonuses for winning the TdF and the Justice Department for defrauding the federal government because of the USPS sponsorship of the team while he was cheating.

Absolutely no doubt he wasn't alone in cheating either before, during and after his career (particularly in terms of some suspcious results gained by a certain team in the past 7 years) but the difference with Armstrong is the lengths he went to in order to contain it.

It was shitbaggery on an industrial mechanised scale

[salvagedcircuitry]

Please forgive me as this is my first post. I have been reading eoshd for a while now and have replied to eoshd several times on twitter so it's about time I made an account. ?

Something to keep an eye on. Apple has a history of driving companies out of business that they want to consume, so apple pays less for them. They did it with dialog semiconductor. They did it with the qualcomm / intel lawsuit (gobbled up intel's mobile modems division at a steep discount). They did it with P.A. Semiconductor. It's debatable that they were going to do it to GT Advanced Technologies.

It is a stretch, but is apple interested in making cinema cameras? Do they want to rekindle the cinematographer relationship they undermined with the fcpx release / taking forever to update the mac pro? Do they want to push the new mac pro sales by getting into video again?
Maybe apple wants the new mac pro desktops to accelerate all raw camera footage, and RedRaw was somehow getting in the way.
There just so happens to be that apple-specific integrated FPGA accelerator option on the new mac pro that apple has so conveniently released zero information on.
Apple likes the look and feel of big brands. They randomly purchased beats for reasons unknown to many. Is RED their next acquisition? Would RED look good on Apple?

Granted, this is pure speculation, but I do wonder if Apple has any interest in stepping up and catering more toward the top tier cinematographer. Maybe a RED acquisition is that step.

[Andrew Reid]

Welcome to the forum. Likewise I've been reading your posts on twitter for quite a while. Great stuff.

My opinion is that ProRes RAW is at the centre of things for now. I suspect RED would have forced Apple into challenging their patent, after telling Apple they were violating it.

I'd like to learn more about it, including what the consequences are for RED is their key patent if it is successfully challenged and annulled.

Your theory about Apple wanting to buy RED would make sense but they would need to do their due diligence on the company. And perhaps read this thread.

[Patrick B.]

37 minutes ago, salvagedcircuitry said:

Please forgive me as this is my first post. I have been reading eoshd for a while now and have replied to eoshd several times on twitter so it's about time I made an account. ?

Something to keep an eye on. Apple has a history of driving companies out of business that they want to consume, so apple pays less for them. They did it with dialog semiconductor. They did it with the qualcomm / intel lawsuit (gobbled up intel's mobile modems division at a steep discount). They did it with P.A. Semiconductor. It's debatable that they were going to do it to GT Advanced Technologies.

It is a stretch, but is apple interested in making cinema cameras? Do they want to rekindle the cinematographer relationship they undermined with the fcpx release / taking forever to update the mac pro? Do they want to push the new mac pro sales by getting into video again?
Maybe apple wants the new mac pro desktops to accelerate all raw camera footage, and RedRaw was somehow getting in the way.
There just so happens to be that apple-specific integrated FPGA accelerator option on the new mac pro that apple has so conveniently released zero information on.
Apple likes the look and feel of big brands. They randomly purchased beats for reasons unknown to many. Is RED their next acquisition? Would RED look good on Apple?

Granted, this is pure speculation, but I do wonder if Apple has any interest in stepping up and catering more toward the top tier cinematographer. Maybe a RED acquisition is that step.

Now that's an interesting thought.  It wasn't that long ago that Apple was selling RED kits on their own online store too.

[Video Hummus]

39 minutes ago, salvagedcircuitry said:

Please forgive me as this is my first post. I have been reading eoshd for a while now and have replied to eoshd several times on twitter so it's about time I made an account. ?

Something to keep an eye on. Apple has a history of driving companies out of business that they want to consume, so apple pays less for them. They did it with dialog semiconductor. They did it with the qualcomm / intel lawsuit (gobbled up intel's mobile modems division at a steep discount). They did it with P.A. Semiconductor. It's debatable that they were going to do it to GT Advanced Technologies.

It is a stretch, but is apple interested in making cinema cameras? Do they want to rekindle the cinematographer relationship they undermined with the fcpx release / taking forever to update the mac pro? Do they want to push the new mac pro sales by getting into video again?
Maybe apple wants the new mac pro desktops to accelerate all raw camera footage, and RedRaw was somehow getting in the way.
There just so happens to be that apple-specific integrated FPGA accelerator option on the new mac pro that apple has so conveniently released zero information on.
Apple likes the look and feel of big brands. They randomly purchased beats for reasons unknown to many. Is RED their next acquisition? Would RED look good on Apple?

Granted, this is pure speculation, but I do wonder if Apple has any interest in stepping up and catering more toward the top tier cinematographer. Maybe a RED acquisition is that step.

Or maybe they realize RED users will pay $1500 for $40 of overseas parts and want in on the action that is the insanity of the cinematography market.

I think they just want to push ProRes RAW as the default in the industry so they can sell $50,000 Mac Pros to studios and ProRes RAW in their phones.

[Andrew Reid]

---

Heads-up to some users. I am going to clean this thread. Nothing personal, but I would like it to flow and to be readable by an important third party tomorrow.

[Evan Burns]

All of this might sound cool and sure, revenge is sweet, but Apple going after RED is definitely not a good thing. Ed mentioned earlier that it’s the little guys that make a difference and I believe that’s true, but when we support an even bigger monster like Apple, it’s no longer worth it. Capitalism ultimately has a cruel sense of humor…

[Jonesy Jones]

Boy I really hope Apple doesn’t acquire Red. Can you imagine if Apple owned those raw patents? ?

[Andrew Reid]

Trying to cancel the very patent you say Apple would like to own suggests otherwise.

[Jonesy Jones]

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

[Andrew Reid]

Jim Jannard on his patent in 2013:

Quote

"Kinetta was not compressed RAW. And Cineform was cited in our patent application as a prior art reference, as was Dalsa, Silicon Imaging and the Jpeg 2000 standard. I will not go into more details for obvious reasons. Given all the prior art references we cited, we were granted our patent for novelty in our approach to this. We have even passed a full-blown re-examination. I won't go into details... that is for Sony to do.

"Whatever I post now will be used in the litigation. If keeping our customers informed puts us at risk... I am OK with that. Look at the big picture. We were alone in 2006 and until just recently. We were alone at championing 4K acquisition with compressed RAW. Now that "everyone is doing it"... it seems easy to believe that this is obvious. Apparently it wasn't for the past 6 years.

**

"RED championed 4K and compressed RAW. We did it starting in 2006. It is curious that 6 years later... it now seems obvious. For the past 6 years, 1080P was "good enough" according to the biggest companies on earth. 4K was just not necessary. Given the proliferation of 4K panels at CES... apparently now we were right. And others are actually claiming to "have invented 4k". Really?

"In 2005 I started RED because the other guys had it wrong. Today, we look smarter than we did seven years ago even though our story has not changed. The only difference is that the other companies seem to want to ignore what we have done. I won't let that happen.

"It will soon come to pass that some companies will begin to offer sensor upgrades and try to take credit for the idea. They may even try to use the phrase "Obsolescence obsolete". Of course they will lead you to believe that this is their idea.

 

[The ghost of squig]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Welcome to the forum. Likewise I've been reading your posts on twitter for quite a while. Great stuff.

My opinion is that ProRes RAW is at the centre of things for now. I suspect RED would have forced Apple into challenging their patent, after telling Apple they were violating it.

I'd like to learn more about it, including what the consequences are for RED is their key patent if it is successfully challenged and annulled.

Your theory about Apple wanting to buy RED would make sense but they would need to do their due diligence on the company. And perhaps read this thread.

Apple can smell blood in the the water. A win for Apple allows Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and the rest to license ProRes raw for internal recording. That's a lot of licensing revenue and a lot of FCPX sales. And a lot of happy filmmakers. ?

[Evan Burns]

2 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

Apple can smell blood in the the water. A win for Apple allows Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and the rest to license ProRes raw for internal recording. That's a lot of licensing revenue and a lot of FCPX sales. And a lot of happy filmmakers. ?

If Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic have to pay more for licensing, it will ultimately come out of the filmmakers pocket.

[Andrew Reid]

Have a look at Phil Holland's behaviour over at Red User against me.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?177766-Apple-seeks-to-invalidate-Red-s-Raw-patent-claims

Agitating to get me sued again by RED.

It's harassment pure and simple, already started.

[Robert Collins]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Jim Jannard on his patent in 2013:

 

It looks to me that Jim Jannard is claiming to have a very 'broad' patent for 'compressed raw video'. But surely 'compressed raw' is just a concept much akin to 'gin and tonic'.

[The ghost of squig]

8 minutes ago, Evan Burns said:

If Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic have to pay more for licensing, it will ultimately come out of the filmmakers pocket.

They'll be free to develop their own flavor of raw.

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Have a look at Phil Holland's behaviour over at Red User against me.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?177766-Apple-seeks-to-invalidate-Red-s-Raw-patent-claims

Agitating to get me sued again by RED.

It's harassment pure and simple, already started.

It's not a cult but. ?

[CoolRunnings]

Any opinion of this? How is someone challenging your patents "standard operating procedure"? Or is it just another brick in the wall in bullshit alley?