Jinni Tech claims RED Compressed RAW patent filing is invalid

[Ed_David]

21 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Have a look at Phil Holland's behaviour over at Red User against me.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?177766-Apple-seeks-to-invalidate-Red-s-Raw-patent-claims

Agitating to get me sued again by RED.

It's harassment pure and simple, already started.

This thread is deleted by me, because Phil came on eoshd to chat.  I have addressed you Phil below.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi Andrew, it's been a while, but I'm going to take that down that you have correctly changed the title of your piece from "APPLE SUES RED" to "APPLE v RED as lawyers petition for cancellation of RAW patent claims".

I'm not trying to agitate you man, I'm attempting to keep you out actual trouble.  You don't realize it, but you're being used and focused for somebody else's intentions.

Be well, thank you for correcting the title, I'm basically trying to fight against disinformation and FUD as it's harmful not only to RED but individuals as well.

[Andrew Reid]

It's true that Apple have filed a re-exam request with the Patent Office but it's everything he doesn't address which is important, such as trying to censor bloggers, or people who have different opinions, or allegedly doing what Jinni Tech explains in his videos, misleading customers, the FTC and the US Patent Office. I'd like to see Jarred address all that, and then we can see what happens with Apple and RED's patent.

[Ed_David]

38 minutes ago, Evan Burns said:

All of this might sound cool and sure, revenge is sweet, but Apple going after RED is definitely not a good thing. Ed mentioned earlier that it’s the little guys that make a difference and I believe that’s true, but when we support an even bigger monster like Apple, it’s no longer worth it. Capitalism ultimately has a cruel sense of humor…

Yes fully agree.  I meant in reference to Bruce of Jinnimag. 

[Evan Burns]

7 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

They'll be free to develop their own flavor of raw.

It's not a cult but. ?

Apple has no interest in supporting other camera brands. More than likely, this is about ProRes RAW and that will cost money.

[Ed_David]

8 minutes ago, Phil Holland said:

Hi Andrew, it's been a while, but I'm going to take that down that you have correctly changed the title of your piece from "APPLE SUES RED" to "APPLE v RED as lawyers petition for cancellation of RAW patent claims".

I'm not trying to agitate you man, I'm attempting to keep you out actual trouble.  You don't realize it, but you're being used and focused for somebody else's intentions.

Be well, thank you for correcting the title, I'm basically trying to fight against disinformation and FUD as it's harmful not only to RED but individuals as well.

Phil I appreciate you coming on here.

Please explain how Andrew is being used for somebody else's intention?  And why share this on this forum?  Does that help him?  Wouldn't a private phone call or message be more effective?

Also can you address this:

Did you threaten to sue Bruce of Jinnimag over a video they made questioning what he said because "you are a private individual"?

And if so, why are you called, "Hydrogen team leader" and giving a quote to a publication about the red hydrogen development? 

https://momofilmfest.com/red-hydrogen-one-3d-smartphone-films/

Stick to the facts.  Don't do character assassinations.  Straw maning and subterfuge is not a good look for a smart guy like yourself.  Look at the apple vs red patent case.  Read it.  Don't just react.  And think about Jarred Land's comment.  Just because Apple says they want to have a good relationship with them, is it possible that Apple is just saying that because, why not say that, so that when they crush your tech, you don't know what hit you?  Doesn't apple hold all the cards?  Is it possible that Jarred is lying like he did about red mini mag being proprietary, non-generic media? Or just misinformed?

Did you not see the quote about the turmoil happening inside red from an anonymous person personal view?

Pulled sponsorships? Phil is that a threat?  Simmer down my friend.  RED is not your company, right?  Isn't that your claim?  You're just a volunteer moderator for them?

I'll say it again - don't go down with the ship, Phil.  You are a really nice guy and I think you are getting caught up with this.  You are smart as heck.  You have a great future and in the future, I'm sure you want to work for other companies like Arri, Blackmagic, Canon, Sony.  

Come on man, be civil.

[Andrew Reid]

9 minutes ago, Phil Holland said:

Hi Andrew, it's been a while, but I'm going to take that down that you have correctly changed the title of your piece from "APPLE SUES RED" to "APPLE v RED as lawyers petition for cancellation of RAW patent claims".

I'm not trying to agitate you man, I'm attempting to keep you out actual trouble.  You don't realize it, but you're being used and focused for somebody else's intentions.

Be well, thank you for correcting the title, I'm basically trying to fight against disinformation and FUD as it's harmful not only to RED but individuals as well.

You are trying to harass me.

Let's be honest.

I've seen the Red User agitation and it perfectly fits with the broader pattern of bullying RED-related behaviour.

I have evidence of it all over the place from past 8 years I have been in the camera industry. I'd encourage you not to join in yourself.

Nobody intends to disinform the public here. We are are trying to do quite the opposite, to get the facts out. Are we perfect? No. Is it a fast moving situation, understanding wise? Yes. Are we legal experts? No.

The situation is dynamic, our understanding is often not perfect, we're filmmakers, not highly specialised patent lawyers or legal people.

As a filmmaker, I don't have the 110% legal expertise to write the perfectly worded fucking headline on my personal blog first time, every time.

And you shouldn't be hanging me for it.

Especially not in the hornets nest of Red User where Jarrad can see it.

I'd welcome Jarrad on this forum, as you are also welcome, to put his side of the story in detail. To talk about facts. There is a lot to address and not just the Apple situation.

I would like to address the harassment directed at me in 2010 for instance.

And to explain the claims made by Bruce Royce (Jinni Tech).

I am all ears for a good explanation, and I mean that.

[Phil Holland]

Ed, this will likely be my last time communicating with you after the facebook discussion some time ago.  I'm close with all of those companies and remain to do so because that's the industry I'm in, I interact with filmmakers around the globe who use all of these tools outside of the fact that I own gear from all of the companies listed and respect them deeply.

I can't trust a quote coming from you or an anonymous source or anything you are pushing regarding your agenda.  To many people are just "trusting things they read on the internet" in regards to the anti-brandism being pushed.  Nobody here is a patent attorney or a tech lawyer that I know of.  It's fine to have opinions, but most of what's being slung lately is accusations which people who don't have the ability for themselves to do the appropriate research about just fall in line with because they saw it, again, on the internet.  It must be true.

The patents have been contested, I think most publicly by Sony.  Whatever transpired between the two companies is there business.  Neither of them went out of business in the process of whatever the hell that was either. 

Andrew, EOSHD is a great industry resource, hell I signed up years ago.  Just tend to it more responsibly if possible.  It's just my advice man, it's a small industry when it comes to all of this stuff. I know you've been through some bad stuff here with RED, but at the moment people are looking for people like you to exploit in situations like  this for their own agendas.

Be well, and I have removed the posts btw.

[Emanuel]

Yeah, Jarred presence would really be nice as said on these pages recently before.

Phil, it's not necessary to be a patent attorney or a tech lawyer as you hint to have an opinion on the matter. I have two to three decades of legal background in the media realm BTW aside (any/every) legal mantra in general and I am entitled to tell you this patent thing is not so complicated as it seems or as some side is invariably pulling their weight. That is, that FUD quote of yours applies here indeed, just not exactly where you see to fit it.

There will be who backs RED claims but also the opposite. Count on it. Let alone different jurisdictions to play their part.

Law is not an exact science for sure ; -)

- E.

[Phil Holland]

One last reply I guess Ed, I didn't "threaten to sue Bruce", I said "now I need to get a lawyer".  To which I sought legal council about defamation and misleading information and attempting to protect myself.  Though I'm pretty involved with the RED and REDuser community, I'm pretty damn far from whatever the hell his intentions are versus RED. 

I'm staying out of it, but right now there's a small handful of people who are chomping on the bits to harm RED, the RED community, and individuals at the moment.  You're playing a clear role in the process which is why I don't want to be anywhere near you.

[Ed_David]

22 minutes ago, Phil Holland said:

One last reply I guess Ed, I didn't "threaten to sue Bruce", I said "now I need to get a lawyer".  To which I sought legal council about defamation and misleading information and attempting to protect myself.  Though I'm pretty involved with the RED and REDuser community, I'm pretty damn far from whatever the hell his intentions are versus RED. 

I'm staying out of it, but right now there's a small handful of people who are chomping on the bits to harm RED, the RED community, and individuals at the moment.  You're playing a clear role in the process which is why I don't want to be anywhere near you.

Phil I wrote you a private email.  I really do appreciate you and all your work for technical understanding with red.  I have owned 2 x the red one mx and 1 red epic mx.  I was very happy with these cameras.  I am interested in this matter because I'm a social activist.  I work on films for social change a lot. 

  I have no alterior motives besides that I have historically stood up to bullies and the red digital cinema is an abusive company.   Examples are for instance, tricking Andrew into signing a NDA.  Also that the president of it, in his final message on reduser, attacked two prominant cinematographers by name.  Not very nice.  Plus Jarrod swearing at people on it a lot.  Plus (I HAVE HEARD BUT HAVEN'T VERIFIED) - doxxing of Bruce of Jinninmag.  But hey, swearing publically is ok by the president of a company, but kind of weird.

Has my anonymous source said anything wrong?  He's just doing basic research we can all do on the internet.  

Again, please answer this:

Are you or were you at any point, "Hydrogen team leader" and giving a quote to a publication about the red hydrogen development? 

https://momofilmfest.com/red-hydrogen-one-3d-smartphone-films/

From article:  "The modules are to include a better-than-5K 2D sensor with a near-universal interchangeable lens mount (“damn near every lens ever made” says Hydrogen team lead Phil Holland)."

[yusufwing]

Wow, this is turning out to be one big RED HOT CHILLY Peppers, a true Masala pot boiler.

[Andrew Reid]

I am with Ed here, Phil, let's simmer down. Sorry for some of the things I've said. I think we can do better and have a better discussion about all this far away from the limelight and the heat of the moment. Feel free to stick around and to tell your side of the story though.

I don't have an anti-RED agenda. Am I pissed off? Yes. I am pissed off at what happened in 2010. It shouldn't have happened. In fact, I have a deep respect for what Graeme Nattress and the crew have achieved with these cameras. It's a shame to sully their effort by intimidating bloggers and users. Remember what happened with Philip Bloom's camera and the arguement with Jim? Again totally unnecessary behaviour. Many people would kill to lead a company as successful as RED. He needs to CHILL OUT.

If I have an "agenda" it is a full-on truth agenda. I am deeply concerned by the claims made by Jinni Tech.

The claims of propriety SSD components, etc.

"Made in USA".

Misleading the FTC and US Patents Office.

These things matter to customers.

As a blogger it's my job to inform them.

I want to know the truth.

Jim Jannard's past behaviour doesn't sit well with me, and not just his behaviour towards me. It isn't all about me.

It's about Michael Bravin.

About Sony.

Blackmagic.

Band Pro.

I want to find out the truth. That's all.

People deserve to know.

And If they try to shut me down I will go out fighting big style.

26 minutes ago, Phil Holland said:

Be well, and I have removed the posts btw.

Thank you.

[Phil Holland]

Sigh. Ed. I really don't want to be involved with you and I answered this on Facebook, but since you are clawing your way into my life.  Yes, I was a beta tester and clearly privy to a lot of Hydrogen info (if you're really curious I'm testing several upcoming pieces of gear from manufacturers right this second), still a mod on H4Vuser.  Not on a payroll, just somebody who's trusted opinion is valued.

I can't control what a writer writes, I'm listed as a Hydrogen Team Member on H4Vuser because I was the first mod there mainly and certainly early to the party in terms of using a beta phone and discovering fun ways to use it and break it.

The only stuff RED has ever paid me for in the ways you are aiming is back when I used to do the RED Masterclasses, which were indeed a hell of a lot of work to put together and do.  Similar to the compensation I get from other camera, lighting, and lens events if I'm serving as instructor/presenter or whatever.  Even then, some of those classes were actually paid by the companies hosting them as they wrangled me in as a "RED Expert", which is a moniker I'm okay with I guess. 

Yep, I've been able to test a few RED cameras before they were out, just like I did the Alexa in the late 2000s, just like the Genesis much earlier than that, just like the Varicam 35 3 months before it hit the market, just like when the first 8 F65s were around.  Most of that effort is to assist my professional activities in relationship to studios, productions, etc....

And yes, I'm going to continue being a moderately useful friend to the industry in general.

 

On a side note and certainly on a lighter note, through messaging Andrew on Facebook just a second ago, our first interaction was him covering my "3 Years Later, DSLR Video, One Man’s Perspective" for using the 5D Mark II on jobs, which I wrote up for Michael Reichmann when he was alive.  Nice to be reminded of a few good things despite shit being slung my way:
https://luminous-landscape.com/3-years-later-dslr-video-one-mans-perspective/

[The ghost of squig]

Animosity towards RED management and the RED community is nothing new, it's been going on since Moses was a boy. A lot of it stems from the actions of said people. Filmmakers have a right to be upset about a patent that may or may not be valid, and is certainly something that many in the film community don't believe should exist. it may be legal to deny the struggling indie filmmaker access to internal raw recording, but it certainly isn't cool. It pays to remember we live and work in a community where one day you can be sleeping in your car, and the next you're making Hollywood features (James Cameron). If that turns out to be me, I know what cameras I won't be shooting with.

[Ed_David]

17 minutes ago, Phil Holland said:

Sigh. Ed. I really don't want to be involved with you and I answered this on Facebook, but since you are clawing your way into my life.  Yes, I was a beta tester and clearly privy to a lot of Hydrogen info (if you're really curious I'm testing several upcoming pieces of gear from manufacturers right this second), still a mod on H4Vuser.  Not on a payroll, just somebody who's trusted opinion is valued.

I can't control what a writer writes, I'm listed as a Hydrogen Team Member on H4Vuser because I was the first mod there mainly and certainly early to the party in terms of using a beta phone and discovering fun ways to use it and break it.

The only stuff RED has ever paid me for in the ways you are aiming is back when I used to do the RED Masterclasses, which were indeed a hell of a lot of work to put together and do.  Similar to the compensation I get from other camera, lighting, and lens events if I'm serving as instructor/presenter or whatever.  Even then, some of those classes were actually paid by the companies hosting them as they wrangled me in as a "RED Expert", which is a moniker I'm okay with I guess. 

Yep, I've been able to test a few RED cameras before they were out, just like I did the Alexa in the late 2000s, just like the Genesis much earlier than that, just like the Varicam 35 3 months before it hit the market, just like when the first 8 F65s were around.  Most of that effort is to assist my professional activities in relationship to studios, productions, etc....

And yes, I'm going to continue being a moderately useful friend to the industry in general.

 

On a side note and certainly on a lighter note, through messaging Andrew on Facebook just a second ago, our first interaction was him covering my "3 Years Later, DSLR Video, One Man’s Perspective" for using the 5D Mark II on jobs, which I wrote up for Michael Reichmann when he was alive.  Nice to be reminded of a few good things despite shit being slung my way:
https://luminous-landscape.com/3-years-later-dslr-video-one-mans-perspective/

then why were you quoted in a news article as "Hydrogen Team Leader" and not correct that?  You seem like a pretty thorough person.  Why do you have so much insider information about how red works?  Do you volunteer your time pro bono for a multimillion dollar company run by a billionaire who owns a private island? How long have you been on reduser?  Since 2007?  Almost 11,000 posts on there?    And if so, why?  Are you getting anything in return for all your volunteer work?    Your graphics and programs they use on their webpage?   Do they license that tool from you? 

I just don't understand your incredibly strong connection to a multimillion dollar company and putting in so many hours but not getting anything but the ability to test new tech and many times being the official face of the company on "crisis" issues like Jinnimag.  How you are the only one giving statements?  Why are you risking harm to red in their currrent lawsuit by potentially stating information that maybe factually incorrect?  Why not just say "this is my opinion" - why make it seem that it is completely factual and red's statement.  What if that hurts them? 

 How many hours a day , or week, do you put into red and reduser and hydrogen?  And for free?

Is it possible they are taking advantage of your good nature?

And where is any of your public work on forums defending Arri or Sony or Panasonic?  How much of your day is spent posting about red vs Sony and Panasonic?  

I am too lazy to look into this. But please correct the record.

PLEASE!

I want the public to like you!!!

[Phil Holland]

Replied to your "let's take this off the forums" apology email Ed.  Please don't contact me again.

[The ghost of squig]

5 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

Is it possible they are taking advantage of your good nature?

Come on bro!

?

[Emanuel]

What a comedy! LMAO : -)

[Andrew Reid]

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

What a comedy! LMAO : -)

Come on. enough.

Taking delight in personal squabbles isn't going to do this thread any favours.

Let's contribute on the facts and focus on the topic.