The REAL difference between normal DSLR video and 5D Mark III raw video

[ZZ VISUAL]

A great pedagogical article for those who fail to accept ABC of imaging. 

 

My couple of pennies:

 

1) In principle one could bring much of the message just comparing two still jpegs - one from e.g. a Panasonic camera and another from the RAW of the same camera. For anyone who ever made RAW processing for stills all this is obvious, but it seems many video makers (or those pretending to be, esp. from the 43rumors crowd) never made it... 

 

2) The difference between 8 bit vs 14 bit (for whatever photo or video) will be more severe when we go from the present 8 bit  screens (where we watch this post) to the higher bit ones.

[JohnBarlow]

One thing missing from the praise of the 5D2/3 and MLRAW, is that they are the cheapest way of recreating the original full height CinemScope aesthetic of 18.6mm, most everything else is far from this.

 

Using crop modes (6:5) very close to the 18.6mm standard is do-able. Why settle for less?

[Andrew Reid]

Yes great for anamorphic lenses. No other camera offers 4:3 or 3:2 aspect ratios at such high resolutions in that price range. Indeed it is something you won't find on the F5 or C500 either.

[Orangenz]

So the advertised 4:2:2 on the RX10/7a will be better than avc but not quite as good?

[Germy1979]

So the advertised 4:2:2 on the RX10/7a will be better than avc but not quite as good?

4:2:2 is better color than avchd. Raw is basically the best the sensor can do though.

[Martin Kacvinsky]

I recently bought Komputerbay 1050x 128Gb. I can record up to 8:44~8:48 in 23.976p raw. I tested it few times and it's stops most of the time very close to 8:38 (circa 42.8~42.9 Gb).

 

I also tested my Lexar 64Gb 1000x. It also writes only 42.8 Gb of the data and then stops.

 

The recording works pretty good with the data write more that 85Mb/s up to 8:26, than it falls to 0.x Mb/s and then finally stops.

 

Since these are two different cards, isn't it strange? Any adivce?

[Andrew Reid]

So the advertised 4:2:2 on the RX10/7a will be better than avc but not quite as good?

 

You mean via HDMI? I've not seen it advertised as 4:2:2 yet. Link please :)

[Orangenz]

You mean via HDMI? I've not seen it advertised as 4:2:2 yet. Link please :)

I'm clueless, that's why I was asking. I do note that in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fEm8h7T8-lY#t=206

 it states, in the context of "clean hdmi" video output, that "the camera shoots raw." Now that really makes no sense if they have suddenly flipped back to talking about stills.

 

DPreview says that they "were told"

"In addition, the camera's footage can be output over HDMI, either with settings overlays for monitoring or without, for recording (and, we're told, with the option for uncompressed 4:2:2 video output)."

http://***URL removed***/previews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx10/4

 

Which would be something rather new.

[alexcosy]

I'm clueless, that's why I was asking. I do note that in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fEm8h7T8-lY#t=206

 it states, in the context of "clean hdmi" video output, that "the camera shoots raw." Now that really makes no sense if they have suddenly flipped back to talking about stills.

 

DPreview says that they "were told"

"In addition, the camera's footage can be output over HDMI, either with settings overlays for monitoring or without, for recording (and, we're told, with the option for uncompressed 4:2:2 video output)."

http://***URL removed***/previews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx10/4

 

Which would be something rather new.

 

Indeed, but as Andrew said, like with the D800, they can tell you all they want that it's clean 4:2:2 10 bits from the HDMI, but if it's just 4:2:0 8bits, "rewrapped" in a 4:2:2 10 bits signal, it doesn't matter, it's just the same "crappy" signal in a beautiful box ;) but they get to tell you that it's great, cause they're not actually lying...

[Artishock]

Nice post, thanks for sharing.

[Andrew Reid]

Artishock. Further posts like yours will be deleted.

 

Feel free to set up a separate topic on cinematography skills, lighting, scriptwriting, acting, etc. instead.

 

I have done one for you - http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/3643-cinematography-skills-and-filmmaking-ideas/

[Hal]

Hi Andrew!

Long time follower, first time commenter. First, thanks for all of the incredible content and analysis as well as creative inspiration so freely offered through your amazing blog! I wish you continued success in life and work ;-)

Second, this has been one of your most illuminating posts. As an m4/3 enthusiast with an OM-D E-M5 and a GX1, I am always on the watch for an alternative body that offers more cinematic video features. The recent Panasonic GM1 actually intrigues me a great deal as it basically offers everything on the GX7 minus 60p video and one or two other features. But it seems like a great replacement for the GX1 and possibly a body that could serve double duty as a poor man's BMPCC.

I am not sure about its bitrate (24 MBPS maybe?) nor its bit depth (probably 12 bit but if the GX7 is 14 bit like the GH3, I would assume the GM1 would be as well?). But it offers 24p native and only holdholds back the 60p to avoid overheating from the video image processor. However, if a hack could bring direct RAW writing to memory card and offload proceesing to a computer then I assume the overheating ussues would be a mute point? Could a RAW effort like the Magic Lantern work be done on One or more of the m4/3 bodies, especially any with 14 bit depth?

The still image quality from all of the leading m4/3 bodies is already past the point of sufficiency for my needs. I would love to get more out of the video of some of the existing bodies currently available.

Thanks!
Hal

[Hal]

Also thinking about your post on the coming death of the DSLR and the role of software, it seems to me that all of the workflow challlenges with disruptive innovations like the Magic Lantern work might be at least partially mitigated by some related computer based software right? Maybe efforts like Magic Lantern could offer the custom firmware for free (as they now do) and sell some related post porcessing and workflow software specifically designed to complement the on camera firmware?

Of course maybe I don't fully understand all of this stuff!

[Kays Alatrakchi]

A few thoughts:

 

At the end of last year I purchased a 5D3 (refurb, end of the year sale...screaming deal). My reasons were that I wanted a full frame camera for both video and stills, and ideally one which was at the cusp of gaining some quality improvements due to Canon's announced 1.2.1 firmware update with "uncompressed HDMI out."

 

When the firmware arrived, and after reading up some enlightening posts, I was almost ready to sell the camera. When Blackmagic announced their new BMCC 4K and the Pocket cameras I was planning on putting the 5D on eBay asap. 

 

Then a small miracle happened, word spread quickly that ML was on the cusp of something big. I stuck it out, read anxiously as those early reports indicated that capturing RAW data was a real possibility, and eventually took a leap of faith and installed ML on the 5D3 and put in my order for a couple of Komputerbay 64gb 1000X cards.

 

I haven't looked back since, the improvement in quality has been stunning to say the least. I have completely rethought my purchase and I now think it's one of the best decisions I have made. This has been strengthened by the delays in the BMPCC shipping, and some of the issues plaguing their Pocket camera. 

 

Further, I have been able to record at 1920X1288 resolution without any issues, this is a good format for anamorphic shooting, or subtle re-framing in post.

 

Having said that, there are a few caveats which might or might not be deal breakers for some:

 

1. As of yet, no audio. This might or might not come back at some point.

 

2. Playback is a bitch. Currently in-camera playback is limited to a low frame rate b/w image, not something you want to show to your client for on-set approval.

 

3. External monitoring is kinda buggy, it definitely has issues but it's useable for basic needs.

 

4. Post production is a bit more involved, and the footage does take up a lot more space than h.264. 

 

5. While I wouldn't call the learning curve steep, there is a lot to wrap your noggin around at first.

 

6. There are some issues with some CF cards, particularly Komputerbay. Order 3-4 and be prepared to send a couple back.

 

If that doesn't scare you, and you own a 5D3 (or even a 5D2), then you should jump in because the quality upgrade is definitely worth it.

 

BTW, I made a short video that shows the differences between footage captured with the 5D3 Raw, the Alexa and the BMCC as how the intercut together in post, you can watch it here if you want:

 

[Germy1979]

A few thoughts:
 
At the end of last year I purchased a 5D3 (refurb, end of the year sale...screaming deal). My reasons were that I wanted a full frame camera for both video and stills, and ideally one which was at the cusp of gaining some quality improvements due to Canon's announced 1.2.1 firmware update with "uncompressed HDMI out."
 
When the firmware arrived, and after reading up some enlightening posts, I was almost ready to sell the camera. When Blackmagic announced their new BMCC 4K and the Pocket cameras I was planning on putting the 5D on eBay asap. 
 
Then a small miracle happened, word spread quickly that ML was on the cusp of something big. I stuck it out, read anxiously as those early reports indicated that capturing RAW data was a real possibility, and eventually took a leap of faith and installed ML on the 5D3 and put in my order for a couple of Komputerbay 64gb 1000X cards.
 
I haven't looked back since, the improvement in quality has been stunning to say the least. I have completely rethought my purchase and I now think it's one of the best decisions I have made. This has been strengthened by the delays in the BMPCC shipping, and some of the issues plaguing their Pocket camera. 
 
Further, I have been able to record at 1920X1288 resolution without any issues, this is a good format for anamorphic shooting, or subtle re-framing in post.
 
Having said that, there are a few caveats which might or might not be deal breakers for some:
 
1. As of yet, no audio. This might or might not come back at some point.
 
2. Playback is a bitch. Currently in-camera playback is limited to a low frame rate b/w image, not something you want to show to your client for on-set approval.
 
3. External monitoring is kinda buggy, it definitely has issues but it's useable for basic needs.
 
4. Post production is a bit more involved, and the footage does take up a lot more space than h.264. 
 
5. While I wouldn't call the learning curve steep, there is a lot to wrap your noggin around at first.
 
6. There are some issues with some CF cards, particularly Komputerbay. Order 3-4 and be prepared to send a couple back.
 
If that doesn't scare you, and you own a 5D3 (or even a 5D2), then you should jump in because the quality upgrade is definitely worth it.
 
BTW, I made a short video that shows the differences between footage captured with the 5D3 Raw, the Alexa and the BMCC as how the intercut together in post, you can watch it here if you want:
 

Oh man:) You made this video?! Lol. I had the comment regarding the Alexa and why it just makes everything look buttery smooth. Haha..
The 5D3 is fast becoming my next purchase. Seems like they all have some caveat though.. Not having feedback of what you just shot to me,
Is pretty rough with the Mark 3.

[Andrew Reid]

Oh man:) You made this video?! Lol. I had the comment regarding the Alexa and why it just makes everything look buttery smooth. Haha..
The 5D3 is fast becoming my next purchase. Seems like they all have some caveat though.. Not having feedback of what you just shot to me,
Is pretty rough with the Mark 3.

 

One way around the playback issue (and yeah - that is a pain) is to record simultaneous proxies in ProRes via HDMI to an Atomos or similar and use those to gimp at the footage.

 

Magic Lantern does do playback, but it's still B/W and low FPS at present time as far as I know. Haven't tested playback on my latest install yet. Recording is pretty bullet proof now though. Card warm up helps. And camera seems to boot quicker too.

[Kays Alatrakchi]

Not having feedback of what you just shot to me,
Is pretty rough with the Mark 3.

 

Another solution is to have someone with a laptop handy on set. The ML team has created some real-time file viewers (mostly on PC), with RAWMagic on the Mac promising a similar feature (which is unfortunately been delayed for some time now). The idea here is to quickly take out the CF card after a series of takes, pop it into the laptop and take a quick look at what you just shot before moving on to the next set up.

 

Lastly, as of last night's build, there seems to be an attempt at reviewing footage in camera in color as opposed to b/w. While this still doesn't improve the poor frame rate, it's definitely a move in the right direction.

[Germy1979]

One way around the playback issue (and yeah - that is a pain) is to record simultaneous proxies in ProRes via HDMI to an Atomos or similar and use those to gimp at the footage.

 

Magic Lantern does do playback, but it's still B/W and low FPS at present time as far as I know. Haven't tested playback on my latest install yet. Recording is pretty bullet proof now though. Card warm up helps. And camera seems to boot quicker too.

That was actually crossing my mind since I still have my Ninja 2.  It doesn't get a clean feed though because ML is using the firmware prior to the upgrade right?  It'd be nice if it had a slick 10 bit output like the Bmcc, because that would be a worthy backup plan for raw.  It's still a good workaround for reviewing Andrew.  Thanks!

[Germy1979]

Another solution is to have someone with a laptop handy on set. The ML team has created some real-time file viewers (mostly on PC), with RAWMagic on the Mac promising a similar feature (which is unfortunately been delayed for some time now). The idea here is to quickly take out the CF card after a series of takes, pop it into the laptop and take a quick look at what you just shot before moving on to the next set up.

 

Lastly, as of last night's build, there seems to be an attempt at reviewing footage in camera in color as opposed to b/w. While this still doesn't improve the poor frame rate, it's definitely a move in the right direction.

I'd be all over this if I had a decent laptop:)  Which should probably be priority considering the costs of media and offloading.

[Stephen de Vere]

Just a reminder...

 

In the article, Andrew is referring and comparing to low spec 8-bit type video that comes from most DSLRs.

 

8-bit video comes in a professional format too. Recorded in other cameras or recorders using less compression (or even no compression) and 4:2:2 sampling 8-bit is a very different experience.

 

Big budget BBC HD shows like 'Planet Earth' were largely shot using 8-bit video.