Panasonic S1H review / hands-on - a true 6K full frame cinema camera

[helium]

12 minutes ago, deezid said:

Dude, were not even talking about that.

Netflix chooses cameras which match with their workflow and allow for a 4K output with HDR.
The BMD Pocket 4K isn't usable in their preferred ACES (to Rec709 and Rec2020 ODT) workflow because color science is weak and the IDT only exaggerates the issues this camera has - it's a brownish nightmare with a clipping red channel on top and missing any fine nuances in hue which I tried to stretch but sometimes ended up in artifacts despite having a 12 bit codec to begin with.

The Pocket 6K is way better in that regard but still cannot compete with even the UMP and G2. The codec is isn't the issue here either as shown on the G2.

Also 35mm resolves way more than just 700 lines lol
Still - wouldn't fit into Netflix's workflow.

Dude, you're talking about everything and anything.  Working backwards:  700 lines is about all you'll get in a movie theater, from a 35mm print  There's a white paper online you can search for, if you're interested, among other sources.  It's not a controversial observation.  "LOL".

There is no ACES transform for the BMPCC 4K in Resolve, so it's not surprising you don't like the results.  Again, your "color science is weak", etc. is typical internet-speak, where unsubstantiated claims vie for attention.  One week it's the BMPCC 4K which is plastic and over-smoothing, then it's the S1H which blurring detail.  Next month, it's the BMPCC 4K which is too sharp, unless you prescription for downsampling is followed.  Or Premiere is 8 bit and Resolve is 32.  Until not.

This stuff never stops, I guess it keeps the forums going.

[Jonathan Bergqvist]

3 minutes ago, helium said:

This stuff never stops, I guess it keeps the forums going.

Haha, but don't we all just love things that keep the forum going?! ?

[deezid]

27 minutes ago, helium said:

Dude, you're talking about everything and anything.  Working backwards:  700 lines is about all you'll get in a movie theater, from a 35mm print  There's a white paper online you can search for, if you're interested, among other sources.  It's not a controversial observation.  "LOL".

There is no ACES transform for the BMPCC 4K in Resolve, so it's not surprising you don't like the results.  Again, your "color science is weak", etc. is typical internet-speak, where unsubstantiated claims vie for attention.  One week it's the BMPCC 4K which is plastic and over-smoothing, then it's the S1H which blurring detail.  Next month, it's the BMPCC 4K which is too sharp, unless you prescription for downsampling is followed.  Or Premiere is 8 bit and Resolve is 32.  Until not.

This stuff never stops, I guess it keeps the forums going.

Film can resolve more detail than modern 4K cameras are able to, especially native 4K sensors. But keep going...

When shooting Braw and cDNG on the Pocket 4K, 6K, UMP, URSA G2 etc... Davinci Resolve applies its own transformation (IDT) for BMD Film V4. Even worse BMD doesn't provide any documentation nor any proper IDT so it can be integrated into Baselight, OCIO, Nuke etc. don't you think? 

Color science is another factor. It's just not good. It's quite bad actually and horrible to deal with. I'm a colorist myself and even prefer the GH5 over it - which has many other flaws and reasons why it hasn't been considered by Netflix. 

Only the Ursa Mini Pro and G2 provide good color science in case you prefer shooting with BMD cameras. Great tonality and definition but are still plagued by the infamous red channel clipping issue.

Premiere can be forced to higher bitdepth decoding but still crawls and shifts color around and doesn't have any color management. But maybe you like that. Idk?

[helium]

How about we just cut to the bone?  Let's see the terrible color science of the BMPPC 4k/6K, versus the sterling results you're getting from the S1H.  And, maybe post your best grade of the S1H material -- something for BMPCC 4K/6k loyalists here, if any, to try to equal,

All that's needed is two identical log shots, both exposed more or less equivalently, at their nominal native ISOs.  It sounds like you've got access to both cameras, and it can't be any more time consuming than contributing to this forum.  And might actually lead to something useful.

[mkabi]

2 hours ago, helium said:

I guess I don't understand why anyone would build a business model around resolution, when the eye can't readily discriminate one from the other.  HD really isn't good enough?

Consider also the implications:  the S1H is an approved camera, but any number of Alexas aren't.  What about S16mm -- not good enough?  Does this really make any sense?

And how will the content "last longer" in 4K, when folks can't readily tell the difference, least of all when streaming on Netflix?  Anyone who still manages to see projected 35mm film is likely getting 700 lines, on a good day.  Does that mean 100 years of cinema won't last, qualitatively, unless it's scanned to 4k, when most people actually interested in cinema would rather see a film print?

I guess thats the direction of progress... if you enjoy stuff of old, then thats that.... content will always supercede resolution though.

You know what it is.... you have a television that you are comfortable with right now, and I am assuming that it is 1080p. And, I'm sure that television will work for another 10 years (give or take), but what if it broke down today/tomorrow? Have you checked out your local electronic store for TVs lately? For every 10 4K TVs, I probably see 1 1080p TV.... funny thing is.... I've spotted 2 8K TVs at my local electronic chain so fast forward 10 years, you will see 10 8K TVs for every 1 4K TV - 1080p is obsolete - are you going to complain then "Whats wrong with HD?"

[1Ale82]

4 hours ago, helium said:

C) And please, no "future proof" nonsense, in any but a marketing sense, which Netflix is itself promoting.  My 4K is bigger and better than your HD!  Actual audiences don't know or care, until they're told.

If Netflix would not provide/demand 4k material, someone else would and they would be out of business. Then, I am sure that now, 2019, 90% of the possible world wide audience does not have any actual possibility to stream 4k content, be it a lack of proper screen, slow internet connection, etc.

 

17 hours ago, jindrich said:

In fact, pretty much EVERY DP would choose an ARRI over everything else, not to mention a stupid DSLR/mirrorless (to shoot professionally, not that DLSRs are stupid). On a professional shoot, the cost of the cameral body rental is essentially NEGLIGIBLE. An ALEXA Mini is €500/day or €1.5k/week. A basic commercial costs typically €250k to make.

Why are people still thinking pros/producers/directors/DPs would choose anything else than the tried and tested (ARRI), specially when their reputation is on the line, when it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE to the budget!!!

Cameras like BMPC4K/6K, S1H, etc are not for this kind of situation. People having instead a 10k budget or working on their project as a second job are more of a target for these cameras, where rental is not much of an option.

[AaronChicago]

Trying out the S1H on a shoot next week. How many hours of record are you guys getting on 1 battery?

[Video Hummus]

4 hours ago, 1Ale82 said:

Then, I am sure that now, 2019, 90% of the possible world wide audience does not have any actual possibility to stream 4k content, be it a lack of proper screen, slow internet connection, etc.

Yup. We won't see fast adoption of 4K content, let alone 8K, content because of one major fact: the cost of distribution, i.e., bandwidth.

More and more broadcast services are moving away from, well, actually broadcast technology, and into IP and internet based delivery (youtube, digital cable tv, Netflix, Hulu, Apple TV etc...) the cost of distributing 8K content to millions of people adds up fast. Hence, why a lot of 4K content was behind a paywall or a more expensive service tier. I expect 8K will be the same, but even more expensive.

Not to mention the fast majority of the general audience just doesn't give a shit wether their their favorite show is in 1080p or 4K. It's vastly diminishing returns after 1080p here.

[sanveer]

The Netflix Certification, and this, should push sales atleast 5 fold, if not more. 

 

https://***URL not allowed***/panasonic-s1h-lab-test-dynamic-range-and-rolling-shutter-results/

Class leading dynamic range. Or way beyond any other ILC hybrid out there. 

[thebrothersthre3]

1 minute ago, sanveer said:

The Netflix Certification, and this, should push sales atleast 5 fold, if not more. 

 

https://***URL not allowed***/panasonic-s1h-lab-test-dynamic-range-and-rolling-shutter-results/

Class leading dynamic range. Or way beyond any other ILC hybrid out there. 

I'd like to see it against the Sigma FP and Nikon with 12 bit RAW.

[crevice]

58 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

Trying out the S1H on a shoot next week. How many hours of record are you guys getting on 1 battery?

I get around 2 hours on one battery

[deezid]

1 hour ago, crevice said:

I get around 2 hours on one battery

same here.

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

The Netflix Certification, and this, should push sales atleast 5 fold, if not more. 

 

https://***URL not allowed***/panasonic-s1h-lab-test-dynamic-range-and-rolling-shutter-results/

Class leading dynamic range. Or way beyond any other ILC hybrid out there. 

hmm yh, by cheating with strong temporal noise reduction creating all kinds of artifacts when there's any kind of motion in low contrast areas.
It really needs a fix, even if that means lower real dynamic range.

[CaptainHook]

11 hours ago, deezid said:

Netflix chooses cameras which match with their workflow and allow for a 4K output with HDR.
The BMD Pocket 4K isn't usable in their preferred ACES (to Rec709 and Rec2020 ODT) workflow because color science is weak and the IDT only exaggerates the issues this camera has - it's a brownish nightmare with a clipping red channel on top and missing any fine nuances in hue which I tried to stretch but sometimes ended up in artifacts despite having a 12 bit codec to begin with.

This has nothing to do with the decisions made by Netflix regarding our cameras (they ask we don't reveal publicly the criteria they use internally so I can't say) and what you attribute to "colour science" is also misunderstood.

[Deadcode]

13 hours ago, deezid said:

 "I'm a colorist myself"

This was my favourite misconception in this topic. Very bold statement based on your posts.

[sanveer]

6 hours ago, deezid said:

hmm yh, by cheating with strong temporal noise reduction creating all kinds of artifacts when there's any kind of motion in low contrast areas.
It really needs a fix, even if that means lower real dynamic range.

Maybe you could share footage to show what you're trying to articulate.

[helium]

22 hours ago, deezid said:

Film can resolve more detail than modern 4K cameras are able to, especially native 4K sensors. But keep going...

When shooting Braw and cDNG on the Pocket 4K, 6K, UMP, URSA G2 etc... Davinci Resolve applies its own transformation (IDT) for BMD Film V4. Even worse BMD doesn't provide any documentation nor any proper IDT so it can be integrated into Baselight, OCIO, Nuke etc. don't you think? 

Color science is another factor. It's just not good. It's quite bad actually and horrible to deal with. I'm a colorist myself and even prefer the GH5 over it - which has many other flaws and reasons why it hasn't been considered by Netflix. 

Only the Ursa Mini Pro and G2 provide good color science in case you prefer shooting with BMD cameras. Great tonality and definition but are still plagued by the infamous red channel clipping issue.

Premiere can be forced to higher bitdepth decoding but still crawls and shifts color around and doesn't have any color management. But maybe you like that. Idk?

 

1) who said a word about the resolution of film negative?  The issue is, the resolution available in film release prints with typical theatrical exhibition.   Do you not listen or is this some sort of baiting attempt? 

And, really, you don't need any measurements to know how little actual resolution is present in release prints.    Nobody, and I mean nobody, sees as much detail in a movie theater with a 35mm release print, as she does watching a bluray at home.  Maybe you've never actually seen a film print?

2) yes, BMD converts braw/cndg to log or other color space format, inside Resolve.  And how else?  If the system doesn't debayer and convert to a color space, there won't be anything to look at.  The issue with ACEs is, the lack of an input color space transform for the BMPCC 4K/6k, which is supplied (for example) with Resolve Color Management.  Whether this is decisive in your case, accounting for your strange preferences (GH5??), nobody can say.   Your fling out these charges, which change from week to week, and who knows what it's all based on?  Whether BMD provides documentation is beside the point.  And with its supposedly "potato" color science, who cares?  Why do you even want it?

3) okay, so now there are *new* charges against Premiere, your original one having been discredited above.  I don't care -- no Premiere user here -- but does this never stop?  Every week, something else to dismiss as crap?  Is this some sort of game?

[deezid]

1 hour ago, helium said:

 

1) who said a word about the resolution of film negative?  The issue is, the resolution available in film release prints with typical theatrical exhibition.   Do you not listen or is this some sort of baiting attempt? 

And, really, you don't need any measurements to know how little actual resolution is present in release prints.    Nobody, and I mean nobody, sees as much detail in a movie theater with a 35mm release print, as she does watching a bluray at home.  Maybe you've never actually seen a film print?

2) yes, BMD converts braw/cndg to log or other color space format, inside Resolve.  And how else?  If the system doesn't debayer and convert to a color space, there won't be anything to look at.  The issue with ACEs is, the lack of an input color space transform for the BMPCC 4K/6k, which is supplied (for example) with Resolve Color Management.  Whether this is decisive in your case, accounting for your strange preferences (GH5??), nobody can say.   Your fling out these charges, which change from week to week, and who knows what it's all based on?  Whether BMD provides documentation is beside the point.  And with its supposedly "potato" color science, who cares?  Why do you even want it?

3) okay, so now there are *new* charges against Premiere, your original one having been discredited above.  I don't care -- no Premiere user here -- but does this never stop?  Every week, something else to dismiss as crap?  Is this some sort of game?

 

1) We have 4K laser projection everywhere even here in Germany. And if your theater keeps playing inferior 16th gen 35mm film copies, that isn't Netflix fault.

2) BMD doesn't provide any IDT or even documentation for implementation into an ACES workflow outside of Resolve and Fusion nor is BMD Film V4 properly calibrated on the Pocket 4K. Look at the Terra 4K and GH5s and Z2: The IMX294/299 is capable of producing nice color when done properly. Also Z-Cam provides documentation about their colorspace and even IDTs for usage inside OCIO and therefor basically any compositing tool - it's a must especially for Netflix who wants their originals edited like that.

3) Reason: People keep blaiming their cameras for banding issues - which aren't caused by their cameras but Premiere Pro.

Quote

Is this some sort of game?

A very specific one: The make @helium mad game, duh.

[helium]

12 minutes ago, deezid said:

A very specific one: The make @helium mad game, duh.

You have made *one* valuable contribution here:  reminding everyone, once again, how silly it is to take seriously the "technical" arguments of people who don't know what they're talking about.

Then again, you're all over the web, spreading disinformation wherever you go, so it's kinda hard to ignore, duh.  But I'll certainly try, from this point out.

[deezid]

28 minutes ago, helium said:

You have made *one* valuable contribution here:  reminding everyone, once again, how silly it is to take seriously the "technical" arguments of people who don't know what they're talking about.

Then again, you're all over the web, spreading disinformation wherever you go, so it's kinda hard to ignore, duh.  But I'll certainly try, from this point out.

Yeah, whatever.
Netflix should do HD because your theater can't do more than 700 lines and also shouldn't care about missing ACES specs and future proofing their own content.

And people should buy different cameras because Premiere introduces banding in their footage. ?

2 hours ago, helium said:

strange preferences (GH5??)

Won some cinematography awards with this camera. The GH5 is still heavily flawed and so is every (consumer and prosumer) camera and many could be fixed by firmware updates... GH5 issues were: V-Log L using Rec709 matrices (so no real ACES compatibility either), weird color, small dynamic range, strong oversharpening etc. and even ghosting/smearing which was fixed with later firmwares after people kept complaining.

Still the best choice for me at that time.

So what's your point?

[Mike Mgee]

@deezid Ill pay some good $$ if you make a comparison video of your lord and savior S1H vs the doooki train bmpcc4k. I wanna believe the hype.