Canon gear advice for pro photographer getting into videography

[mercer]

Just a heads up... it is my understanding that DPAF does not work through SDI to external recorder. 

[ghostwind]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Just a heads up... it is my understanding that DPAF does not work through SDI to external recorder. 

I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that when externally recording is the C200’s SDI our, DPAF is disabled? Sounds very strange. 

[kye]

7 hours ago, ghostwind said:

@kye Yes, I thought about that. But of course the RAW will trump the 8bit MP4. I just need to focus on the MP4 and how it stands up in grading.

Yes, what I was getting at was that by doing this you would be able to:

• Shoot a real project with a C200
• Get 8-bit footage from a real job that you can do test grading on (instead of setting up a fake job and not getting paid for it)
• Not risk stuffing up a real job if the 8-bit footage wasn't good enough
• Get a taste of how difficult the RAW workflow is (maybe it's not as bad as you think..)

Edit: Depending on your NLE you could deliver the project to the client from the RAW files and then just swap in the 8-bit files to the same grade and see how they hold up.  It's not about comparing them to the RAW, but by processing them how you would normally and then working out if they're good enough.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, ghostwind said:

I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that when externally recording is the C200’s SDI our, DPAF is disabled? Sounds very strange. 

Yup, that’s my understanding. Now I do not have a C200, so that information is second hand. But I’m sure it’s in the manual as a footnote.

[ghostwind]

10 hours ago, mrtreve said:

Hi there, I've owned both C300 MKII and C200 so can give you my advice for what its worth. I know that the spec boys will have their opinions, but this is based mainly on real-world use.

I would almost certainly go for the C200.

The C300II's 12bit mode has no off-speed option (I think max 30fps?), so you may not really be able to use it that much if you record slo-mo regularly.

One workflow I use a bit is to treat the internal raw as an intermediate and transcode all of my rushes to 2k prores 4444.

I find that Resolve does an excellent job at this and is very quick. Leave it going overnight after your shoot and away you go. You could potentially delete your CRM files to free up hard drive space. I usually keep them so I can re-link for the grade.

Most of my work involves short takes so I use raw almost exclusively. However the 8 bit mp4 are very good and I would definitely use these if recording long interviews or events.

I'd say if you're jobs are half stills/half video then 2 or 3 256GB cfast cards should get you through. They're very quick to download if you have an external SSD hooked up to your laptop, so you should be able to cycle through them fairly easily.

I've also noticed less banding/artefacts in the C200 raw than in the C300II footage. The reason to go for the C300II would be features like genlock & timecode as well as the broadcast ready codec - which doesn't sound relevant for your work.

I wouldn't consider the C100 line unless you're strapped for cash. The newer generation of Cinema EOS are just a league above IMO.

Some interesting points. But around 30min/256GB card, is not exactly ideal. 3x256GB cards (with a single point of failure instead of writing to dual cards simultaneously) is also just 90min total time, which is not a lot of footage, but a lot of data. Again, I could see this on personal or unique projects, but I need more time than that.

Interestingly enough, after some more research, it seems the cleanest and sharpest 1080p comes from the C100s and the original C300, where it was/is a clean downsample off the 4K sensor. With the C200/C300MKII, seems the 1080p is softer with some aliasing, so it’s better to shoot in 4K and downsample in post to get the best 1080p. Canon did something different apparently. 

[User]

1 hour ago, ghostwind said:

Canon did something different apparently. 

- They sure did...
It's easy to understand why so many people are frustrated with them.

Arri Amira?

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/cameras-accessories/digital-cinema-cameras/arri-amira-advanced-camera-set

[ghostwind]

2 hours ago, User said:

- They sure did...
It's easy to understand why so many people are frustrated with them.

Arri Amira?

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/cameras-accessories/digital-cinema-cameras/arri-amira-advanced-camera-set

Yes. I’ll get two  

I’m all anal now, but once I get the camera (whichever it will be), I’ll forget all this stuff and just shoot. Still leaning towards the C300MKII, just because it’s a lot more versatile. So for me, that means more future proof in terms of what I can and will shoot. I think it will give me more options and allow for more flexibility. That’s more important to me than if it’s slightly worse in one area than the C200 or another camera. Not that it really is overall. 

[thephoenix]

4 hours ago, ghostwind said:

I’m all anal

let's keep your personal life away form here man ?

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, User said:

Arri Amira?

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/cameras-accessories/digital-cinema-cameras/arri-amira-advanced-camera-set

They're showing up dirt cheap on ebay now 

 

And I'm seeing AMIRAs more on "low/no budget" productions I'm working on that might have been a FS7/F5 type project instead in the past. 

 

AMIRAs are not as unaffordable as you might think. 

 

Although I guess still out of reach for the OP maybe, perhaps. 

[User]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'm seeing AMIRAs more on "low/no budget" productions I'm working on that might have been a FS7/F5 type project instead in the past. 

Good. I absolutely love this camera. It's the real deal.

Here is a great doc film shot (by one person) on it: https://www.indiewire.com/2017/01/fire-at-sea-gianfranco-rosi-cinematography-best-documentary-oscar-1201773480/

 

[thebrothersthre3]

I've been looking to upgrade my camera package and rather than the OG Amira I am thinking of an F35. Even cheaper and honestly I think the sensor is superior.

Thats way off topic though. On another note I am really considering an EOS R.

Yes 4k is cropped but you can still shoot 1080p up to 60p in full frame. Its got a good codec and Clog is great. The Auto focus is top of the line, you can adapt any EF glass and use their ND adapter. Plus they only cost like $1500-$1600 used. Great battery life and ergonomics. Yes 120p 720 sucks but if you just need 1080p up to 60 its hard to beat IMHO. Auto WB is great on it too unlike on Fuji.

The 10bit 422 4k to a ninja is apparently gorgeous, though I can't get around the rolling shutter so I'd probably not use it.
 

[mrtreve]

18 hours ago, ghostwind said:

Some interesting points. But around 30min/256GB card, is not exactly ideal. 3x256GB cards (with a single point of failure instead of writing to dual cards simultaneously) is also just 90min total time, which is not a lot of footage, but a lot of data. Again, I could see this on personal or unique projects, but I need more time than that.

Interestingly enough, after some more research, it seems the cleanest and sharpest 1080p comes from the C100s and the original C300, where it was/is a clean downsample off the 4K sensor. With the C200/C300MKII, seems the 1080p is softer with some aliasing, so it’s better to shoot in 4K and downsample in post to get the best 1080p. Canon did something different apparently. 

Well yes I suppose work out the recording time you'd need and go from there.

The Alexa Mini has but one card slot & I've never had a cfast card fail from a Canon camera,  so one card slot isn't as risky as the Youtubers would have you believe.

Also unless you want to spend 2X on cards, you're unlikely to ever do dual recording anyway!

In regards to C100/C300 having superior 1080p, I suggest you test them against the newer cameras to see for yourself. The newer chips have better DR and colour for sure.

Even though I loved the C300II, I would hardly call it future proof as its almost EOL. I mean it'll make nice pictures for years, but on a technology front it's on its way out. I sold mine earlier this year because I believe the CRL is lowkey the best development Canon have made for a while... hence why its in the new C500II.

[ghostwind]

@IronFilm The AMIRA is very nice, but yes, way out of my price range, especially as you start adding even basic things to it. It's a bit on the heavier side too for handheld shooting. But yeah, for me the market is either $10K and under or $20K and up. And I'm in the $10K max.

@mrtreve It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. It's happened to me on the 1DXMKII that I had a Cfast card fail, and I used the CF card backup. It's why I always shoot stills to dual cards. Not only that, but once I also damaged an SD in the 5DMKIV, as I was in a hurry to swap things out and they (SD cards) don't take a lot to get damaged. But again, I had a CF backup. And I read that with video it's even more temperamental, but yeah, to each his own. I just personally would never shoot to one card on a paid shoot, proxy files and all, unless I had the time to dump the data off the card to external storage on site.

For sure the newer cameras have better overall image quality. I was purely talking about sharpness. All the Canons I've seen are very, very soft at 1080p. Surprisingly so. And it's not "organic" softness, it's something strange in how Canon is downsampling or whatever it is they are doing in camera. I did see C100MKII 1080p and in comparison it's way sharper, in a good, natural way.

I meant future proof in terms of yes, being able to take nice images for years, but really in terms of it being more flexible, allowing me to try new things down the road that the C200 can't do. So for me it's more future proof in that way if you get what I mean. I also don't believe clients will be asking for more than 4K in the next 5 years. The C300MKII is more of a generalist that can excel in many areas (external RAW for example) while the C200 is more of a specialist. So the C200 seems more limiting to me, unless you know you will shoot RAW 75%+ of the time, or are OK with the internal codecs because they satisfy your post. CRL I'm sure is very nice and the future, but the required storage and workflow is not for everyone. The C500MKII is very nice with the modular design, FF sensor, CFexpress dual cards, etc. But 6K? 2g/s CRL? For onsite data dumping, I can see it of course. For a single person shooting, not so much. All this data and more resolution reminds me of the DSLR megapixel wars, that have pretty much plateaued now. At some point it will happen with cinema cameras too. Give more more DR, and all the other things instead. 

 

 

 

 

[User]

There are two ball parks:

1) What do you need for your personal projects?
2) What do you need for outside projects?

For me, it's all about story. And on personal verite doc projects in difficult conditions, I need a camera that helps me capture good audio easily... laying in music under video afterwards only takes me so far. The C100MkII ticks all boxes in a nice small and cheap package with long takes. Under good light, if exposed correctly, the 24mb codec holds up very well. But in the night, under less than idea lighting conditions, I wish it fatter so I could reef on it more... this is where the C300MkII (or Amira) would help, but at a much higher price.

But for now, when the audience lights come up, and the snarky highlight roll-off/ buzzing shadows hipster takes the mic, I'll cram the entire camera package up his ass.

[mrtreve]

11 minutes ago, ghostwind said:

 

@mrtreve It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. It's happened to me on the 1DXMKII that I had a Cfast card fail, and I used the CF card backup. It's why I always shoot stills to dual cards. Not only that, but once I also damaged an SD in the 5DMKIV, as I was in a hurry to swap things out and they (SD cards) don't take a lot to get damaged. But again, I had a CF backup. And I read that with video it's even more temperamental, but yeah, to each his own. I just personally would never shoot to one card on a paid shoot, proxy files and all, unless I had the time to dump the data off the card to external storage on site.

If you def need dual slots then C300II is your boy.

I can't speak for the 1080 on the C200 but on the C300II it's definitely sharp. You should test it. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, ghostwind said:

For sure the newer cameras have better overall image quality. I was purely talking about sharpness. All the Canons I've seen are very, very soft at 1080p. Surprisingly so. And it's not "organic" softness, it's something strange in how Canon is downsampling or whatever it is they are doing in camera. I did see C100MKII 1080p and in comparison it's way sharper, in a good, natural way.

We've all been there!  You might have noticed the vitriol earlier in the thread about Canon crippling it's lineup.  I don't know if you've ever seen the RAW footage from a Canon camera with the Magic Lantern hack, but it really is something quite special, so there is no technical reason that Canon couldn't have taken a good quality 1080 readout (at 10 or even 12-bit) and put it through a nice h264 compression to give a lovely image.  Of course, is having an 80D with DPAF in video, great CS and a wonderful and robust image a good business idea for them?  Well....

I own a Canon XC10 and it outputs the kind of image the C100 gives, only it does it in 4K at 305Mbps.  It's a wonderful camera, except for the fixed lens which limits creative choice in that department.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, User said:

Good. I absolutely love this camera. It's the real deal.

It definitely is my favorite to work with from the Sound Department perspective, is the friendliest of all the ARRIs

 

6 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I've been looking to upgrade my camera package and rather than the OG Amira I am thinking of an F35. Even cheaper and honestly I think the sensor is superior.

Never been on set with a F35, is that F35 is a much tougher camera to work with during a shoot.

While the AMIRA at a biiiiiiiiiiiig stretch it could be used by a "solo operator"

5 hours ago, mrtreve said:

The Alexa Mini has but one card slot & I've never had a cfast card fail from a Canon camera,  so one card slot isn't as risky as the Youtubers would have you believe.

Agreed, but none the less I'm glad the new Sound Devices 833 is going to be recording to TRIPLE media!

[ghostwind]

OK, so back to square one  Really I want the best looking 2K/1080p that Canon has to offer today in its cinema line. And I want to shoot internally, so it will have to be with whatever codecs each camera can record internally.

Is that C100MKII even though it's again a low bitrate codec, so not sure how it holds up in post in less than ideal run & gun situations?

Is it the C200, shooting in 4K 4:2:0 8bit and down converting to 2K/1080p in Premiere?

Or is it the C300MKII, shooting in 2K/1080P RGB444 12bit, or 4K and downsampling in Premiere?

Which camera will offer the best 2K/1080p? The rest I can figure out (the clear benefits of all other features, value vs. cost, 4K itself, etc.). I guess answering this simple question is more complicated than I originally thought.

 

 

 

[User]

4 minutes ago, ghostwind said:

Is it the C200, shooting in 4K 4:2:0 8bit and down converting to 2K/1080p in Premiere?

What was all the talk months earlier about converting 4k 8 bit down to 1080 and the extra colour space that arrives as a result. Can any of the tech heads here comment?

[kye]

3 hours ago, User said:

What was all the talk months earlier about converting 4k 8 bit down to 1080 and the extra colour space that arrives as a result. Can any of the tech heads here comment?

When you down convert 4K 8-bit down to 1080 you get 4:4:4 colour space and depending on a bunch of different factors, you will get a result that is somewhere between 8-bit and 10-bit.

Going into the technicalities of why this occurs will derail the thread somewhat so I'd suggest looking it up and reading about it to anyone that questions this.