Spring Revolution - my shoot with the Canon 5D Mark III - first impressions

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=magjipro link=topic=434.msg2727#msg2727 date=1332305283]
A lot of things are wrong with this post and review.... Also I've always been skeptical with shooting with non Canon L glass, as a photographer shooting and full resolution you see the weakness in lesser glass. [/quote]

Oh dear you don't get it my friend. PS, since when has Leica been 'lesser glass'. Shots above were with the 50mm R mount Leica stopped down to F5.6. I challenge you to get sharper than that!

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2728#msg2728 date=1332306156]
If GH2 can improve on the DR, highlight roll off, wacky consumer colours and electronic look I will always look for answers in a dSLR.[/quote]

That is a really wacky statement. The GH2 keeps more of the original DR from the sensor than any other DSLR on the market. Compare how much is in a 5D Mark II raw still to what is left over in the video mode. DR in video mode is currently not sensor limited but depends more on the image processing and scaling side. The colours are anything but wacky on the GH2 and it has a very highly gradable image with the hack because so much data is maintained with the high bitrates. True the sensor does not do colour like a Canon DSLR. But the difference is more subtle than you give it credit for. As for the electronic look this is your fault not the camera's. Shoot better I suggest  :P

[Simco123]

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=434.msg2731#msg2731 date=1332307084]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2728#msg2728 date=1332306156]
If GH2 can improve on the DR, highlight roll off, wacky consumer colours and electronic look I will always look for answers in a dSLR.[/quote]

That is a really wacky statement. The GH2 keeps more of the original DR from the sensor than any other DSLR on the market. Compare how much is in a 5D Mark II raw still to what is left over in the video mode. DR in video mode is currently not sensor limited but depends more on the image processing and scaling side. The colours are anything but wacky on the GH2 and it has a very highly gradable image with the hack because so much data is maintained with the high bitrates. True the sensor does not do colour like a Canon DSLR. But the difference is more subtle than you give it credit for. As for the electronic look this is your fault not the camera's. Shoot better I suggest  :P
[/quote]

GH2 does produce wacky consumer grade colours and prone to blown out and lacked DR compare to the 5D2. I showed some samples of the video to my friend who is a indie filmmaker, he wasnt thrilled by the sunny outdoor daylight shots but liked the night time ones. The 5D2 he likes the daylight outdoor from that and I agree.

[Sara]

Well since this "reviewer" ie Andrew actually owns the MK3 as well as a half dozen other video shooting cameras AND a well hacked GH2 and the rest of us don't....I would tend to believe what he says.

These "so called" other sites that review DSLR video rarely hack the GH2 to the level Andrew does nor do they test other cameras like the C300, Sony F3 running S-log or the Red Scarlet.  The C300 does indeed shoot resolution worthy of calling itself a 1080 camera.  As does the GH2.  That is what Andrew was using as a benchmark.  Canon is clearly protecting their newly released $16,000 camera and the forthcoming $7,000 1DX.  Even Canon employees when pressed will admit that - companies do this (car companies especially) and that is part of life - we speak with our wallets though...in the end it is our choice what we buy.

Everyone agrees that the MK3 in the right hands can be stunning - ANY tool can - but I don't for second buy the argument that movie goers can't tell the difference between different types of tools used.  To the degree gear nuts and pixel peepers do?  Not likely, but they can tell. 

At my college, girls with no cinematography background complain CONSTANTLY about a "cheap video look" when they view Canon 5D footage because of its CMOS wobble, low resolution, and thick pixelation.  They grew up with real film and are used to digital processed by Hollywood (Alexa and Scarlet) in ways the average user can't achieve. 

Remember that the MK3 costs $3,500 and is being released nearly 4 years after the MK2.  It is to be expected that everyone had high hopes for the camera.

Even Canon sponsored pros question the MK3 development:

[url=http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/03/01/canon-5d-mkiii-my-thoughts/]http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/03/01/canon-5d-mkiii-my-thoughts/[/url]

Consumers gain nothing by blindly accepting mediocrity.  The entire RED company and every movie created with those products wouldn't exist if other companies were creating perfect products - they found gaps in the market and went after it....and if Canon and Nikon and Sony continue down this path, Red, Alexa, or someone new will chew up their "video" market share.

That being said, I don't think Andrew was even that harsh on the Canon MK3 anyway - he clearly states that he enjoyed using it and it can compliment other cameras.  And for all we know a hack might be released for it this summer boosting the resolution.  *crosses fingers*

Happy shooting!

PS:  Don't get me started on that whole "Leica isn't up to L glass comment"....oh boy....  :)

[trifin]

I have a mkIII and a GH2.  I am really happy with the mkIII. I have missed the Canon look and the camera feels so good in the hand compared to the GH2.

I guess I am in the minority here but I don't really like my GH2.  When I hacked it and then ended up with awful looking footage - I never really worked out why but I don't have the time to poor over the forums and find the correct hack that I need. They change all the time and there are a few different ones out there depending on what you need. I just want a cam that I pick up and shoot with and produces the best images that I can afford.  I don't think I am alone in this and have the mkIII which records a decent high bit rate clip without hacking is something I feel confident in.

I think the lack of resolution is a shame but it not something I am surprised about (I honestly didn't think Canon would give the mkIII it). Does it bother me, no. Should it, maybe?

One thing.  Wide angle lenses on gh2 compared to mkII or III.  Whilst the ff does push the lens and most lens are soft at the edges at least one has plenty of choices for the mkII/III.  There are so few options for the GH2 - the Oly 12mm and maybe a couple of others?  Have I missed a Leica 12mm?  The other thing I want is a general high quality zooms with IS for general work and I have got bored of waiting for the two coming Panasonics - the Canon 24-105 IS is great.

I think my usage is different from alot on here - I make sports / travel documentaries and will be using the mkIII (or gh2) with a Panasonic HPX250. 

[Schol]

Hello  Andrew :)

For this first post thanks for this blog !


In this article

[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/7074/hacked-gf2-the-300-digital-cinema-camera]http://www.eoshd.com/content/7074/hacked-gf2-the-300-digital-cinema-camera[/url]

you said :
"I’m using 44Mbit AVCHD 1080/25p on the GF2 and it gives similar resolution and bitrates to the 5D Mark II – you can definitely intercut despite the smaller crop sensor. Though the sensor is very dated compared to more current cameras, the image processor does a good job in video mode.
So all in all a very impressive performance given the price!"

So, i think it's the same situation beetween MKIII and GF2 ?

Looking for a light camera around video, do you think the hacked GF2 stay a good choice ?

And what about your own GF2 video samples ?

In the same "Hacked GF2 – the $300 digital cinema camera" , you wrote :

"Footage coming soon".....

Thanks again and best regards

Schol

[Samuel H]

I still have to create my Flaat picture styles for the 5D3, those could give this camera a clear win in the high-DR niche

I would need a set of very specific (but easy to shoot) RAW stills, if you shoot those for me you'd be the first to use the resulting picture styles  ;)

(I would also need to have a version of PSE and DPP that can work with those 5D3 files, and I'm not sure the updates at the canon site are up yet)

[gene_can_sing]

Adding a bit to Jeff's questions earlier regarding a firmware update to increase resolution, I'm wondering if that is possible in a firmware update?

Is it possible to increase a cameras resolution from 700 lines to 1000 lines with a firmware update or a hack? That seems like it might be too much of a low level thing to achieve in a firmware update.

I guess if anyone can do it, it would be Alex at Magic Lantern. I thought I heard somewhere that ML said it might be possible to hack true HDMI out from the 5D3. This seems along the lines of a resolution increase and seems related to an overall hack increase in the cameras internal resolution.

What do you think Andrew? Is a resolution hack even possible?

How about hacking a crop mode in the 5d3? I can't believe they left that out.

With that said, not buying a camera from Canon until they release something with 1000 lines of resolution. FS-100 + Metabones is calling, but I just hate the camcorder format.

[Liszon]

@Andrew, can you post uncompressed TIFF still captures from the video made with the MkIII?

[FilmMan]

Basically, here's the score,
1.  Canon had 3 years to bring out the 5D3 and it so far is a disappointment.  This is their FLAG SHIP.
2. The"video" landscape changed immensely during the last 3 years.
3.  People want quality.  Cameras are expensive.  Technology changes.  Putting down $3500 plus for a camera is expensive and risky as the next company could come out with a similar product with options people actually want (true 2k or 4k and with a better codec).  Why should people have to hack a product to a better product too?  Why can't the camera maker give what the consumer wants?  Charge a bit more for upgraded options???  I'd be okay with that.
4.  Canon could get alot of people jumping ship.  Remember the JVC is coming.  Kineraw is coming.  New GH coming.  And others.  However, Canon may be coming out with what we want shortly?  Will it be too late? 

Canon is dangling a slighly sweeter carrot in front of people with the Mark 5d3 (3 years to develop!).  Not enough for most people.  Wouldn't it be nice if the Magic Lantern team opened up the 5d2 and got full HDMI out. Or perhaps were able to play with the sensor and get 4k??? Or perhaps change the codec???  Wishful thinking. 

If Canon gave what people wanted, it would make sense.  Critical mass for the 5d3 would occur.  Canon would make probably just as much on accessories too.  Keeping your audience in this day and age is challenging.  People's loyalty only goes so far.  In business, you want to keep your clients happy not lose them.  Just my disjointed rant of the day. 

[RichST]

I'm just not seeing how a hack could improve resolution; to get better resolution requires a redesign of the sensor. From the looks of the early footage it looks like the only improvements in their new sensor is that it nows bins in both directions (which helps with moire and low light sensitivity but does nothing for resolution) and has less rolling shutter due to the extra number of channels. Apparently this requires three years to do (slight sarcasm there) but it's not like the pressure is on to produce anything better in the price range. Their only serious competition is coming from Nikon and Sony, the GH series just doesn't sell in high enough quantities to pose any sort of real threat.

[mike_tee_vee]

I know there is outrage over the resolution, but the mk III DOES have it's place.  It's full frame, has a certain look, and is now without the nasty false details.  It's disappointing that it is not the be-all, do-everything tool that we were hoping for, but the FS-100 isn't either. 

[FilmMan]

Rich,
https://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/dea4ce5e18f9140f/a35d128529b9e90e?show_docid=a35d128529b9e90e
Clean HDMI out may be a possibility???  Read further below.
Alex from ML:

Speaking of DIGIC - I've found a few image filters in Canon's image
processing pipeline; these can be enabled or disabled very easily. You can
find 3 of them under Movie menu (those are grayscale recording, negative
image, and something that looks like purple fringing).


These functions which use DIGIC registers are found usually by trial and
error (changing the values in these registers blindly and writing down what
they do). There are thousands of registers (many of them unused), so
analyzing all of them by brute force is a huge task. If you would like to
help with this, let me know and I'll prepare a special autoexec.bin (you
don't have to write any code, but you shouldn't be afraid of lockups,
ERR70's and other similar things).


The following functions were implemented by changing DIGIC registers: FPS
override, Highlight++, display saturation, display position adjustment,
custom color palettes, and today, image filters. Other possible
functionality: [b]clean HDMI out[/b], moving the recorded box around in crop mode,
custom curves applied to image, anamorphic preview... etc. The good news is
that DIGIC commands are the same on all cameras.


This can unlock many things that previously were thought to be impossible
or very hard.

[FilmMan]

Rich,

Alex said the following too:

Looks like we are making progress in understanding how to reconfigure sensor scanning modes, image processing pipeline, output device and so on. No promises for now, just some hope.

[FilmMan]

Read this about the Canon Mark 5d iii.  There was some post about some trick.  I doubt if it relates to this but who knows?  Take this with a grain of salt.  4k talk.

[url=http://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/fc9bd818a9db767f#]http://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/fc9bd818a9db767f#[/url]

[Sara]

It would be incredible if Canon at NAB announced a firmware hack to enable 4k on the MK3.

The only thing that makes this claim suspect is that all the new Canon 4k Cine lenses DONT cover FF sensors - so why would they create these half dozens lenses (already shipping) that wouldn't work on the MK3. 

They must have made these for a different camera.

One can hope - but right now the Canon MK3 isn't what everyone expected.

[FilmMan]

Sara,
You're right.  I also heard a sub C300 camera and an above C300 camera.  Lot's of rumours.  Probably the 4k dslr announcement at NAB? 

On the Magic Lantern front, I did read that there was something they wanted to try in which they didn't need the 5D3 within their possession.  So the 4K "turn on"  came to mind.  Probably bs. 

[Alex Mand]

Ow first post! lol Well got our hands on a MKIII directly from HK. Testing now on the studio. ummm... Don't know what to say really... our Photographer is in love with this cam. So many af points. some neat funcions for photos, but let's be clear: the resolution is the same of our old MKII.

I didn't see any improvements and also is important to check the rolling shutter because I think is almost the same as MKII, impossible to use it handheld, same jello...

Low light performance is very good!! I got almost images with ISO 6400. The problem is the grain, looks more like blocks or something like this. Not as beatiful as C300 noise, I don't think is even close.

We've got for months now the sony F3 with S-log enabled and the GH2 as a B cam, also MKII and a 7D.

People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!

Well, MKIII is a good cam but not even close to what we expected. We're going to sell it here for a premium and buy another lens for outr kit.

Consider to wait a bit until NAB. We can live with a bit of moire and false colours because we reduce it everytime we can, so is not a big issue for us... I was looking for somethingon par with our GH2, but resolution wise it's well behind...

:(

[Alex Mand]

ummm... Perhaps Alex from ML can make some magic with the registers form MKIII but for that he must have one to test it out... lol
If I remember they did a campain to buy him a MKII sou he could port ML from 550D to MKII. It's time to start a new campain.
Really, resolution is not something you can expect from this cam, but I think It'll be a major hit in photography world! It has so many points!! And shutter noise is really sexy... lol  :D
I don't think canon will bother much 'cause it's going to be a hit for photo!

[christianhubbard]

if he hasnt been able to unlock true 1080p resolution for the past three years on the relatively easier to hack t2i, what makes you guys think it'll be easy if he sets his mind to it on the mk3?

seriously, if it even is possible, it could take years. :/