Spring Revolution - my shoot with the Canon 5D Mark III - first impressions

[Sara]

[quote author=christianhubbard link=topic=434.msg2765#msg2765 date=1332374270]
if he hasnt been able to unlock true 1080p resolution for the past three years on the relatively easier to hack t2i, what makes you guys think it'll be easy if he sets his mind to it on the mk3?

seriously, if it even is possible, it could take years. :/
[/quote]

Never though of it that way.  Well put.

I think Canon just screwed all the preorder people and I feel sorry for stores having to deal with disappointed customers - but that is the gamble people take I guess. 

Looking forward to more samples from Andrew because I am sure he can bring out the best from the MK3. 

:)

[tungah]

[quote author=christianhubbard link=topic=434.msg2765#msg2765 date=1332374270]
if he hasnt been able to unlock true 1080p resolution for the past three years on the relatively easier to hack t2i, what makes you guys think it'll be easy if he sets his mind to it on the mk3?

seriously, if it even is possible, it could take years. :/
[/quote]

That's exactly what I think. Canon wont leave the 5D3 easily hackable just to see it go head to head with the more expensive lineup.
And there's no reason to think they wont do the same thing they did with the 7D that hasn't even been hacked at all.

[Andrew Reid]

Some interesting views here. The 5D Mark III has an incredible sensor but having some issues with codec noise today. I thought they'd fixed the codec, well... Not quite it seems. Shot first proper project today on 5D Mark III so new material uploading now.

[Simco123]

[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.

[Simco123]

Dan Chung has chosen 5DIII over D4/D800 and he played with all the big guns. So we know which camera came out on top with videos. I never recall him using a GH2 but then he only shoot with FF dSLRs.

[Sara]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2777#msg2777 date=1332391550]
[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.
[/quote]

I don't agree, nor do many professionals using the 5D.  Watch the Zacuto productions where the filmagraphers who actually use the 5D for big budget work clearly state (as do the tests) that the 5DMK2 does NOT have a lot of usable dynamic range.  Don't confuse dynamic range with what a DP would consider acceptable for a film - mushy video with little detail isn't usable dynamic range.  Sure you might get an image - but there is no point.

Watch this episode:

[url=http://vimeo.com/24334733]The Great Camera Shootout 2011: Episode 1 ~ "The Tipping Point"[/url]

Not trying to bash the 5D nor am I saying the GH2 is great either.  I owned a 5D and am hoping the MK3 has something special was well (still waiting).

[Alex Mand]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2777#msg2777 date=1332391550]
[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.
[/quote]

We got a MKII and its DR is nowhere nearly as usable as GH2 hacked (It lacks detail although FF has its advantages). Is a good camera but times passed and there are other boys in town. We've finished our tests for our MKIII today and all I can say is the same that is being said all around. It has a great low light sensitivity but at cost of detail in shadows. It is really mushy! We didn't try to compare with our F3 because it would be nonsense (we expected not months ago)
We've stopped down a 85mm 1.2L to 5.6f to really see the maximum sharpness as possible and with same settings of our MKII the results is the same, but without false colours, moire and aliasing and that's very good and the bare minimum for a camera 3 years later. Of course less compression is a big plus! But the thing is: It has the same resolution of MKII, it is still in the 700 lines league. That is a big minus for me but its my opinion, my boss liked it... lol So it is a matter of preference, if you like less definition ok... This camera is a good contender and can grade well as Stu Maschwitz showed on Dan chung's test.
So it is a matter of paying $3500, throw 1k more and get a FS100 (with its own problems but nonetheless a good camera) or wait until NAB and see fi something new appears on the market.
I think the 4k C EOS is a big myth... For me, MKIII is an awesome stills camera and a good FF video camera nowadays...  :-\

[Simco123]

We talked about this before. DR as in point of capture not the actual latitude with a video footage. GH2 clipping highlight don't cut it for many bright outdoor videos.

[quote author=Sara link=topic=434.msg2779#msg2779 date=1332393094]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2777#msg2777 date=1332391550]
[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.
[/quote]

I don't agree, nor do many professionals using the 5D.  Watch the Zacuto productions where the filmagraphers who actually use the 5D for big budget work clearly state (as do the tests) that the 5DMK2 does NOT have a lot of usable dynamic range.  Don't confuse dynamic range with what a DP would consider acceptable for a film - mushy video with little detail isn't usable dynamic range.  Sure you might get an image - but there is no point.

Watch this episode:

[url=http://vimeo.com/24334733]The Great Camera Shootout 2011: Episode 1 ~ "The Tipping Point"[/url]

Not trying to bash the 5D nor am I saying the GH2 is great either.  I owned a 5D and am hoping the MK3 has something special was well (still waiting).
[/quote]

[Simco123]

[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2780#msg2780 date=1332394725]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2777#msg2777 date=1332391550]
[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.
[/quote]

We got a MKII and its DR is nowhere nearly as usable as GH2 hacked (It lacks detail although FF has its advantages). Is a good camera but times passed and there are other boys in town. We've finished our tests for our MKIII today and all I can say is the same that is being said all around. It has a great low light sensitivity but at cost of detail in shadows. It is really mushy! We didn't try to compare with our F3 because it would be nonsense (we expected not months ago)
We've stopped down a 85mm 1.2L to 5.6f to really see the maximum sharpness as possible and with same settings of our MKII the results is the same, but without false colours, moire and aliasing and that's very good and the bare minimum for a camera 3 years later. Of course less compression is a big plus! But the thing is: It has the same resolution of MKII, it is still in the 700 lines league. That is a big minus for me but its my opinion, my boss liked it... lol So it is a matter of preference, if you like less definition ok... This camera is a good contender and can grade well as Stu Maschwitz showed on Dan chung's test.
So it is a matter of paying $3500, throw 1k more and get a FS100 (with its own problems but nonetheless a good camera) or wait until NAB and see fi something new appears on the market.
I think the 4k C EOS is a big myth... For me, MKIII is an awesome stills camera and a good FF video camera nowadays...  :-\
[/quote]

Read my reply to Sara who also seem to forgot what we had discussed not so long ago.

[Sara]

Simco123 I just misunderstood - again - what you were saying. 

My fault.

:)

Well unless Andrew is able to find something special about the MK3 nobody else can, and while we all wait for a hack, is there anyone that believes that 1DX is worth 7k for video?  Or is the 1DX going to be the same as the MK3?

I think rental houses are going to have a VERY busy summer with FS100, F3, C300, Red MX, Red Epic, Alexa cameras for indi film makers.

[Alex Mand]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2781#msg2781 date=1332397313]
We talked about this before. DR as in point of capture not the actual latitude with a video footage. GH2 clipping highlight don't cut it for many bright outdoor videos.

[quote author=Sara link=topic=434.msg2779#msg2779 date=1332393094]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=434.msg2777#msg2777 date=1332391550]
[quote author=dangerzonerj link=topic=434.msg2759#msg2759 date=1332365347]


People saying here that GH2 has no comparable DR to MKII must be insane or never touched it! Really!!


[/quote]

You need to go to Specsavers. 5D2 has great DR, only wish GH2 has the same nice nice roll off and not clipping highlights.
[/quote]

I don't agree, nor do many professionals using the 5D.  Watch the Zacuto productions where the filmagraphers who actually use the 5D for big budget work clearly state (as do the tests) that the 5DMK2 does NOT have a lot of usable dynamic range.  Don't confuse dynamic range with what a DP would consider acceptable for a film - mushy video with little detail isn't usable dynamic range.  Sure you might get an image - but there is no point.

Watch this episode:

[url=http://vimeo.com/24334733]The Great Camera Shootout 2011: Episode 1 ~ "The Tipping Point"[/url]

Not trying to bash the 5D nor am I saying the GH2 is great either.  I owned a 5D and am hoping the MK3 has something special was well (still waiting).
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yeah you right! GH2 is a tool to be used in the right situation. On a sunny day actually we use the F3. We record on an external recorder device and I must say that S-log is amazing. Well the camera with lenses and the recorder costs a lot and can produce really stunning images.

But let's be honest, MKIII is a good update with the corrections we expected. My real concern is just the resolution stucked on 700 lines or so but in every other aspect there were improvements. They didn't give all we wanted but also no other company has (nikon for example).

And yet we will probably see amazing footage from MKIII just as we saw on MKII. It's just I'm so used to work with the F3 on my job that I really had high hopes for resolution on MKIII and is disappointing to see such an amazing cam that is just not on par with the much simple GH2 on that matter...  :(

[RichST]

[quote author=FilmMan link=topic=434.msg2753#msg2753 date=1332359420]
Rich,

Alex said the following too:

Looks like we are making progress in understanding how to reconfigure sensor scanning modes, image processing pipeline, output device and so on. No promises for now, just some hope.
[/quote]

There are almost certainly different scanning modes for the Canon DSLRs that came after the 5DII, as the 720 modes evidently use a different routine than the 1080 modes. Maybe Canon does have a hidden secret mode in the 5DIII (though 4K is highly unlikely given the speed and number of channels on the sensor). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any hack on a DSLR has ever "overressed" a sensor's scanning ability in video mode. The GH13/23 hacks improved bitrate and allowed people to output 1080 mpeg files but true resolution never went up. I really think the resolution is something hardwired into the camera's sensor - it has to perform the binning on the sensor before the lines get read otherwise there would be no speed advantage. Upping the resolution would mean the camera would have to fundamentally go into another binning routine which would mean the chip would have to be designed somehow to be able to execute different binning or subsampling patterns. Sure it's possible there are finer ones hidden in there, especially for liveview, but the frame rates would probably drop to intolerably slow speeds and rolling shutter would be horrible. Now there IS one camera out there that has a chip fundamentally equipped to do what you're talking about and it's the Nikon One, but that camera would probably stop recording as soon as its buffer filled up (which wouldn't take long)

[Jeff Gibbs]

Lots of great discussion here.  I find the pixel peeping thing to be weird and sort of desperate defense.  If someone finds the image too soft, then its too soft.  If you think its fine as is, your right too, for your needs!  I think we can each be the judge of what we need.

For wide shots for my work and most of my colleagues the Mark II and apparently now the Mark III the low resolution is a problem.  Otherwise, it's a stunning image, and I am still using a Mark II, as well as a GH2 and an XF300.  I was hoping for one camera I could carry with me say off into the mountains to follow doc style folks fighting some environmental issue, that does the interviews well, is easy to follow action with, and can capture vista and landscapes reasonably well without a lot of muss and fuss.  I really hoped that the Mark III was going to offer all of this, so far its doesn't seem to, I am going to wait to buy another Canon DSLR until they get the resolution bumped up.  Every wide shot with the Mark III I have seen so far looks pretty much like the Mark II: soft.

[gene_can_sing]

I think the moral of this thread is: "Way to go Canon! You've disappointed your loyal video customers once again after making them wait 4 longs years because of your greed. Your only chance now is to make the 4K C-DSLR right. So please do something right, for once."

I know it's going to cost an arm and a leg, but still, just make the 4K camera meet the needs of your customers. What a novice concept.

[see ya]

[quote]The colour space of video is now broadcast HDTV standard Rec. 709 (thanks for the discovery, David Newman on Twitter). The 5D Mark II had the old standard definition 601 colour space, which didn’t make any sense at all[/quote]

Ok, so this is where the total misinformation has come from about rec709, and the wrong assumption that David was talking about restricted 16 - 235 luma which he wasn't. ;-)

David was talking about the Color Matrix not the color space.  Canon MOV's have always been rec709 color space. That is the color primaries have always been rec709/sRGB and the transfer curve has always been rec709.

And being rec709 doesn't mean it has to be restricted 16 - 235, it can be full range luma. Just like old SD DV BT601 sources can be full range luma. Have to test the source to find out.

The color matrix has changed from BT601 to BT709 with the mk III I guess because so many transcoded the MOVs and lost the BT601 declaration in the header and therefore due to pixel count being HD BT709 is assumed by the media player / NLE so getting the color matrix wrong means pinks go to orange in previews so bang goes skin tone. :-)

David was surprised that Canon's were BT601 Color Matrix when I asked him on Cineform Insider back in Nov 2010:

[url=http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13372801&postID=4688493609703624231]http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13372801&postID=4688493609703624231[/url]

[FilmMan]

JVC 4k camera - first the attached lens model (about $5K) then the second model (talk of $10K) which you can put your own lenses on.  Competition around the corner.  Read a rumour about Canon knocking down their C300 price to match the Sony F3 price sometime in the near future too.  I tried the 5D3 and felt cheated.  JVC is giving 4K for $5000 including the lens.  Why couldn't Canon do the same, give better resolution for $5000?  GREED and hoping for people to be stupid???  Clearly taking advantage of people due to their success with the 5D2? 

[Lenry]

I've been using a Canon XH-A1 for business videos and want something that I can shoot high res products shots with (stills) and do some narrow DOF shots with. Should I go with a GH-2 or get a better video camera like a 1/2" chip Sony camera? I was considering the 5D3 but no longer.