Lighting on set for fire VFX

[kaylee]

hey broskis~!

sooo, im doin a thing with VFX... wow~!!!

imagine that i ~kinda~ know what im doing...? i mean i sure know what i CANT do lol

i want to light a DARK SET, a set that does NOT light the actors fully, like this

with some additional orange lights to simulate fire glow, and i will then add fire vfx elements in AE

to go with the actual small practical fire on set

thats the plan!!! whaddya u guys think?? sound ok?

i specifically would like advice on how to light for fire vfx elements added in post

halp!!!

?

[HockeyFan12]

I’ve used this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEv02ALtNY

A gaffer I worked with recommends mixing the magic gadgets with a light that’s always turned on (once the "fire" starts) but dimmed way down. If it’s just the magic gadget it will look too obviously like a single pulsing source. You can add a few magic gadgets at different strengths and different speeds or with orange/yellow gels of different color/intensity.

Fire is somewhere around 1800K-2500K I think. Tungsten lights are closer to 2900K so you can use orange gels to get it more orange. Or dimmed down tungsten bulbs are more orange already. But gels are most flexible in my experience. You can use a regular dimmer or one like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Yescom-Variable-Controller-Settings-Hydroponics/dp/B00U3LD1WA/ref=asc_df_B00U3LD1WA/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198107334619&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8937789165355064762&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001876&hvtargid=pla-351845451838&psc=1

Or use a few of these mixed with one tungsten source with a gel or tungsten balanced LED with a gel, and have that source be soft (the "ambience" from the fire) or even bounced:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1437657-REG/luxli_orc_viola_m2_5_rgbaw_led_light.html/%3Fkw%3DLUORCVIOLAM2%26BI%3D225%26ap%3Dy%26smp%3Dy%26lsft%3DBI:514

On a bigger budget, the magic gadget is a better choice imo. But not too different.

Of course you have to plan and time it all up. Coordinate the effect on set with what's going on in post (in your head and then in post). A heat haze effect helps, too. Video Copilot has a pretty good one and it's cheap.

I'd be wary mixing real flames and fake. Difficult to match the levels or control them. And you're working with real flames. But if you can pull it off, that might provide the most realistic effect. In my experience, if flames are the light source, they're really going to blow out so sometimes it's easier just to add them all in post even if it doesn't look 100% real. The flames are going to be a lot brighter than the rest of the scene, which will be underexposed, and that's tricky to expose correctly but if you add all the flames in post and use power windows on faces and whatnot it's not so bad imo.

Fog elements help, too.

Use screen or add transfer mode for the flames imo. That reference vid is comped pretty well imo and the elements look good from that vendor.

Shoot and comp tests if you're unsure.

[kaylee]

@HockeyFan12 tysm for your indepth response, i rlly appreciate it

in a word, youre full of good ideas, and im going to research your post at length. my only thoughts to add, as i continue to suss this thing out, are:

1) fancy dimmer thing is awesome, but expensive. i went to my would be location last night (in the dark, right?), and set up a couple lil battery powered led lights with gels. WELL! it works great in that space, and its all BATTERY POWERED. im SUPER into that rn. i dont need a generator for this shoot, and the more we can reduce the size of our footprint as a crew, the better.

therefore: seen these...? could be v effective, cuz i could get lots of em... hide them, or not, and vfx some fire on there later

 

2) im gonna grade the heck outta this. strong color, with a warm and dark side (fire/moonlight). so... theres that. im not going for naturalistic color at all, fyi. makes life easy lol

 

3) and fog! yeah... some haze will be going thru the frame almost all the time, roughening things up nicely

 

tysm again hockeyfan ❤️?? will be workin on this~!

[mercer]

I always love your ambitious posts and plans, Kaylee! I wouldn’t even attempt something like this at my level but I always believe you’ll pull it off.

Are you using your 5D3 for this or is it part of the iPhone project you’re working on?

[kaylee]

5 hours ago, mercer said:

I always love your ambitious posts and plans, Kaylee! I wouldn’t even attempt something like this at my level but I always believe you’ll pull it off.

omg tysm mercer ? this project is easier than it sounds, i swear ?

its all abt planning tbh. i get that now

5 hours ago, mercer said:

Are you using your 5D3 for this or is it part of the iPhone project you’re working on?

smartphones 4 sure!!! the aesthetic is like 2019 blair witch kinda, with a light ~on the camera~

spooky!!! weird!! ??? lolol

[HockeyFan12]

I think those will work if they're bright enough.

The only thing the gaffer said that I think is worth considering is you might also want a constant (non-flickering) dim orange source that's very soft/ambient or else it will look too high contrast and fake and also try to make sure the flickering feels a little random/offset. But that depends on the lights you're using. If it looks good as is it's fine. And fog/haze is good but consider adding it in post in addition or instead or else the bright areas will clump around the light sources. And be careful of front lighting smoke, can wash out the frame.

Shoot some tests maybe but I think you'll make it work. Also maybe download a high quality iPhone app and then add in compression artifacts etc. in post for the vfx shots imo.

[kaylee]

4 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I think those will work if they're bright enough.

The only thing the gaffer said that I think is worth considering is you might also want a constant (non-flickering) dim orange source that's very soft/ambient or else it will look too high contrast and fake and also try to make sure the flickering feels a little random/offset. But that depends on the lights you're using. If it looks good as is it's fine. And fog/haze is good but consider adding it in post in addition or instead or else the bright areas will clump around the light sources. And be careful of front lighting smoke, can wash out the frame.

Shoot some tests maybe but I think you'll make it work. Also maybe download a high quality iPhone app and then add in compression artifacts etc. in post for the vfx shots imo.

im just quoting that entire post for awesomeness lol. thank u again @HockeyFan12.im gonna do PLENTY of tests~!

????????????????????????????

[kaylee]

@HockeyFan12 trynna wrap my brain around this rn. seems simple enough

vfx breakdown

[HockeyFan12]

My guess:

Paint out light sources.

Track the background.

Add smoke elements (normal transfer mode I’m guessing), adjust levels/blur/etc. 

Position/add fire elements, change to screen or add transfer mode. Adjust levels/blur.

Roto foreground.

Add embers/sparks.

Maybe add haze, foreground smoke, etc.

Color correct to add orange tint.

(And of course track the camera motion so the elements follow it. Or that whole thing could be a still with shake added in post.)

[TurboRat]

You can use something like a Quasar RGB. It has prebuilt effects like a fire effect - 

.  

[kaylee]

 @TurboRat that thing is sicc as heck, but too expensive for me to buy rn (although i want one!! more like ten smh), and im trynna produce this off the mtn i live on w/o goin to rental houses

the vfx route may be the way to go, but i reached out to the local fire dept today and they were super cool and helpful... so MAYBE a small real fire will be ok...

ill keep ya posted lol

[no_connection]

You could take a decently bright LCD projector and aim it at a diffuser or backprojection(for a bright backdrop) depending on the need. Then make a fiery looking thing to play on it. Should be pretty cheap to find some older low res but bright one too as a dynamic light source. Black level probably not going to be an issue when used in this way. Btw I meant to use the projected image as a light source and not shining the projector directly at the subject, although that could be useful too.
With some masking you could add reflectors and add "virtual" lights and many other neat things, imagination and time/skill it the limit.

[kaylee]

@no_connection thats a great idea. im gonna spend my day trynna actually figure this out...

it comes down to what i want the "fire" to actually look like in the frame, angles, etc., and how MUCH fire there should be...

im thinking that going 100% vfx is totally doable, and im ALREADY doing 90% vfx fire soooo...?

idk, i gotta suss this out~! this is where Producer Kaylee and Director Kaylee go to the location and have a serious meeting lol