Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW

[Waynes]

What I'm interested in as far as buying, is 6k/4k 50/60 Bayer, and some sort of good 16stop+ mode.  How come the camera doesn't have either of those?  That's good followup questions. 

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I honestly don’t know what to say about it. 

In the end, I think the FP will live or die based on its price... $3000 is just too much for a 1080p Raw camera... even if it can do 4K external.

It can do 4K RAW internal and 4K MOV ALL-I

Nobody at Sigma is saying it will cost $3000.

They are saying UNDER $3000 and that is a conservative rough ballpark figure by reps because they don't know what the price is going to be yet. Could be anything from $1000 to $2999.

[Lars Steenhoff]

Yes it was great to see the Fp, and nice to meet you too Andrew!

My request was to add lossless compressed CDNG this would save 30 percent or more of the data, and might be able to make 10 bit internal possible.

Magic lantern added lossless compression on the Canon 5d3 and it made a lot more possible.

 

And I would like to see 4k DCI

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It can do 4K RAW internal and 4K MOV ALL-I

Yes 8 bit 4K internal may prove to be better than the MOV. But either way, the MOV is a spec already in cheaper cameras and I doubt most people will buy this camera for MOV... but good point and options are always a good thing.

 

20 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Nobody at Sigma is saying it will cost $3000.

They are saying UNDER $3000 and that is a conservative rough ballpark figure by reps because they don't know what the price is going to be yet. Could be anything from $1000 to $2999.

I work in the trade show industry and every morning before the show, the reps and marketing team have a meeting in their booth to discuss strategy. They are fully aware of the questions they will receive throughout the day, so if they said “under $3000” you can be damn sure it will be closer to $3000 than $1000. But maybe they are using the attendees as some sort of focus group and they’ll gauge interest by the ballpark figure... hopefully.

[mercer]

I wonder if the internal 8 bit raw can be used as a proxy recording while simultaneously shooting out to an SSD... that way, the raw panel in Resolve could be used in the edit/color before dealing with the massive 12 bit file sizes.

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

I honestly don’t know what to say about it. 

In the end, I think the FP will live or die based on its price... $3000 is just too much for a 1080p Raw camera... even if it can do 4K external.

 

I think when you're talking about recording on the T5 drives, rather than unwieldy external screen based recorders, the whole internal/external definition becomes a bit moot.

Conceptually, its not actually that far removed from RED drives (aside from the "proprietary" media) and no one considers that to record externally. 

There are locking solutions for USB-C that could easily enable an after market "cartridge" type of housing and the SmallRig solution is a neat one.

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Btw, how was the screen?

Hard to tell without taking it outdoors really but in terms of using it in combination with the loupe, I've used that same on my Sigma SD0 (and even put an LCD in it to make a cheap EVF  ) and its very solid and with it on the FP we weren't having any difficulty hitting focus.....

2 hours ago, mercer said:

But maybe they are using the attendees as some sort of focus group and they’ll gauge interest by the ballpark figure... hopefully.

 

Well if they were, then as this was pretty much the response from me and @Andrew Reid when they mentioned the price they'll hopefully take that into account in their final calculations 

[Sid]

I find this camera fascinating but I am completely in suspense over a rumoured Foveon full frame version coming in 2020, and if that one will do video at any level.  An FP camera with Foveon sensor would be amazing (would it not ?).    Does anyone have any views ?

[amanieux]

looks like a fresh new camera built from the ground up without the weight from the past so why did they kept the old outdated sd card media ? m.2 ssd are cheaper, faster and have a bigger capacity we are dealing with huge raw files after all so  so why did they not put a m.2 internal ssd slot instead of a sd card slot ?

[nathlas]

1 hour ago, Sid said:

I find this camera fascinating but I am completely in suspense over a rumoured Foveon full frame version coming in 2020, and if that one will do video at any level.  An FP camera with Foveon sensor would be amazing (would it not ?).    Does anyone have any views ?

Rumors are saying that Foveon camera wil use exactly the same camera form, same idea but with foveon sensor as the heart of that camera.

But do not expect serious video capabilities and high iso.....that's why FP is out there to cover that negative side of foveon.

[kye]

9 hours ago, sanveer said:

Wouldn't the advantage of 8-bit RAW be inexistent, if at all, over hight qualities of ProRes 10-bit (ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 HQ)? 

One advantage of RAW is shooting green-screen and getting clean edges.  Most forms of compression crunch edges and give you halo problems, so this would be an advantage, especially if you lit and exposed well to get the image right in-camera.  In a sense this becomes really great for film students and small-budget productions where you're cutting out the LOG profile / colour grading in post headaches but still retain many RAW benefits.

4 hours ago, mercer said:

With that being said... internal 12 bit 1080p Raw, up to 60p, to SD cards... is pretty perfect for 75% of my use. And then I can grow into the external 4K Raw as new projects and my post hardware grows.

Is the 1080p Raw cropped or is it FF?

If it is FF and it’s $1999 or less... I will preorder and be a test dummy.

.........

Attach a small nato rail to the strap lug and the camera will still be relatively small with a proper handle... it would be great if the handle had a record trigger too, maybe BTM can think of something?

I wonder if there is still a bit of a gap in the 1080p RAW camera lineup?

The BMPCCv1 had bad audio preamps, the BMMCC needed a rig, ML can be fiddly for some people.  I don't know if the P4K / P6K do 1080 RAW without any major drawbacks?  I also don't know if there are many people in the market for shooting 1080p RAW?

But if there is a gap in that market then maybe this will find a niche there too?

That handle looks very cool BTW, combined with a hardware to lock in the connectors this would be quite an elegant way to get the 12-bit RAW 4K.

2 hours ago, mercer said:

I wonder if the internal 8 bit raw can be used as a proxy recording while simultaneously shooting out to an SSD... that way, the raw panel in Resolve could be used in the edit/color before dealing with the massive 12 bit file sizes.

Or (unlikely) have it do 1080 RAW internal and 4K RAW external simultaneously?  No idea on how that would work, but having 1080 RAW internal and 4K RAW master files would allow full grading to be done on the 1080 12-bit RAW before rendering.  Things requiring tracking like stabilisation or compositing would need to be done on the 4K files, but for productions not requiring those, that would be interesting.

[buggz]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

I wonder if the internal 8 bit raw can be used as a proxy recording while simultaneously shooting out to an SSD... that way, the raw panel in Resolve could be used in the edit/color before dealing with the massive 12 bit file sizes.

That would be a great idea.

[mercer]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think when you're talking about recording on the T5 drives, rather than unwieldy external screen based recorders, the whole internal/external definition becomes a bit moot.

Conceptually, its not actually that far removed from RED drives (aside from the "proprietary" media) and no one considers that to record externally. 

There are locking solutions for USB-C that could easily enable an after market "cartridge" type of housing and the SmallRig solution is a neat one.

This is such a weird camera, in a good way, that I don’t know what to think. Sure, I’d rather have all internal raw, regardless of resolution, bitrate and color depth, but as you said, the T5 is waaay better than an external monitor, so it is not a dealbreaker. And I’m sure Tilta and SmallRig will come up with some great solutions.

I also love the director’s viewfinder feature, even if it would be a novelty for me... it’s still pretty cool.

Again... it really comes down to price. The $2500-$3000 range has always been a barrier for me and my obsessive hobby. I end up questioning whether it would be worth saving the extra money for a C200, or possibly a Komodo. 

So hopefully the reps got a lot of face melting when they said “under $3000” and it ends up being under $2000.

Thanks for the updates, though @Andrew Reid and @BTM_Pix it’s really great to have people on the frontlines!

3 hours ago, kye said:

Or (unlikely) have it do 1080 RAW internal and 4K RAW external simultaneously?  No idea on how that would work, but having 1080 RAW internal and 4K RAW master files would allow full grading to be done on the 1080 12-bit RAW before rendering.  Things requiring tracking like stabilisation or compositing would need to be done on the 4K files, but for productions not requiring those, that would be interesting.

It seems Sigma is open to suggestions, so the interview could have opened a dialogue for some very unique features via firmware updates.

I love Andrew’s idea to squeeze some extra resolution and color depth internally by having an anamorphic mode... hopefully that note made it to the engineer in the booth.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, buggz said:

That would be a great idea.

Without the mechanical shutter and with the special heat shield the FP has, it may be possible. Maybe?

[thebrothersthre3]

Compressed 10 bit RAW would be much more enticing than uncompressed 8 bit CDNG IMHO

[kye]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

It seems Sigma is open to suggestions, so the interview could have opened a dialogue for some very unique features via firmware updates.

I love Andrew’s idea to squeeze some extra resolution and color depth internally by having an anamorphic mode... hopefully that note made it to the engineer in the booth.

I agree - if they take feedback and accommodate what they can (technology permitting) they could end up with a really interesting camera that accommodates some niches that the other manufacturers didn't realise existed.

Getting the extra bit-depth by recording less pixels is a great idea, and you could get that by either not using pixels at the sides (for an anamorphic mode) or by not using pixels at the top/bottom for a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, both of which are useful in different situations.  That's one of the things I really like about ML RAW - the options to lower the data rate through aspect ratios.  

Assuming the viewfinder previews it well (which I would assume they would do) then it's great to be able to shoot like that.  That's one thing I miss on my GH5, if I want to shoot 2.35:1 then it gives me these tiny/weak guidelines that are practically invisible, but doesn't 1) black out the other parts, or 2) not record the other parts.  Getting a smooth 2.35 shooting experience would be really good, both by framing things easily, as well as allowing you to compose with the right aspect ratio.  I find myself composing according to what I see in the viewfinder, as well as using the other eye to see the world and what is out of frame before it goes into frame, and when combined with the other eye and also thinking about sound as well as not falling over something while I'm walking or whatever, the aspect ratio guidelines get lost and I compose for the 16:9 and then have difficulty cropping in post because I've framed using the top and bottom parts of the 16:9 image.

[thephoenix]

good luck selling it at 2999.

 

[Andrew Reid]

12 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Yes it was great to see the Fp, and nice to meet you too Andrew!

My request was to add lossless compressed CDNG this would save 30 percent or more of the data, and might be able to make 10 bit internal possible.

Magic lantern added lossless compression on the Canon 5d3 and it made a lot more possible.

 

And I would like to see 4k DCI

Yep great to meet you Crazy coincidence of me checking out the Panasonic 8K and you being there with an Iscorama!!

[Lars Steenhoff]

Yea the sigma seems the ideal camera for the iscorama, if they just added the de -squeeze and lossless compressed dng I will finally be able to say that there is a better full frame raw capable camera than the 5dmk3.

 

That 8k panasonic is a great look at the future

[amanieux]

7 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Compressed 10 bit RAW would be much more enticing than uncompressed 8 bit CDNG IMHO

the algorithm to convert raw data to uncompressed 8 bit is much less computational intensive than compressed 10 bit, not sure if this camera have enough computational power or good enough heat diffusion to handle that internally

[seku]

5 minutes ago, amanieux said:

the algorithm to convert raw data to uncompressed 8 bit is much less computational intensive than compressed 10 bit, not sure if this camera have enough computational power or good enough heat diffusion to handle that internally

Even the olde 5d mk3 manages to do it  i suppose the problem is more along the lines of the RED patent