Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW

[Scott_Warren]

Question about the 1.02 firmware notes.

"...and introduces added lens aberration correction processing."

Does this mean the cDNG raw files will have an option for lens corrections like distortion and vignette removal burned in, or would this just be for .MOVs? I bought the fp for its raw capability, so I don't imagine ever recording to a video format. It's fun being able to treat video like motion stills

On the other hand, programs like Resolve don't support lens correction databases or metadata that I know of like Camera Raw does. It would be great if they did!

[paulinventome]

3 hours ago, Scott_Warren said:

On the other hand, programs like Resolve don't support lens correction databases or metadata that I know of like Camera Raw does. It would be great if they did!

I'd bet good money this is MOV only. 

Resolve has OFX plugs for lens stuff but if you're serious about you should shoot lens grids and flat surfaces.

I'd prefer to do my own work as if it doesn't work then you've a problem. The lightroom profile for the 50 summicron is totally wrong with the vignetting, drives me nuts - and i don't think i can fix it.

cheers
Paul

7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Is it this one ?

http://www.ggsfoto.com/en/products/OCULAR.html

Looks very smart with the Hasselblad 500CM styling !

I bought a (very) cheapo rubber collapsible loupe which was 3.2 inch and works well on the FP but I need to sort out a mount for it.

Based on that, the Nikon D5 version of the Ocular would be the one to get as its the same screen size and the frame looks to be equal thickness on each edge.

This is a UK dealer/distributor for it 

https://www.cameraclean.co.uk/products.php?cat=Ocular+Folding+Viewfinder+-+Black

I've bought quite a few bits off them at the Photo/Video show at the NEC over the years and they were set to be there for this year's one until the cancellation which would have been an ideal time to have a hands on look at the Ocular.

The stuff they pick up distribution for has always been decent quality though so, for me personally, that would maybe less of a risk of the unknown as a blind purchase if they are selling them. 

 

Awesome, i may give this a go then!

cheers
Paul

[Scott_Warren]

The sole reason I joined Twitter a few days ago has paid off. Mr. Yamaki replied to my question asking if lens aberration correction would apply to cDNG and .Mov:

 

[paulinventome]

9 hours ago, Scott_Warren said:

The sole reason I joined Twitter a few days ago has paid off. Mr. Yamaki replied to my question asking if lens aberration correction would apply to cDNG and .Mov:

 

Kazuto answers the emails too, he's an asset for sigma.

I'm so not fussed about this though! In terms or priority - we're saying there's enough headroom to perform a full frame distortion in real time but we can't scale better? I suppose it evidences there is juice available for additional processing though.

But i assume this works with a very limited set of lenses...

cheers
Paul

 

[Chris Whitten]

Seems to me basic issues such as blown out first frames in cine and inaccurate exposure in stills are more important than lens correction.

 

[paulinventome]

34 minutes ago, Chris Whitten said:

Seems to me basic issues such as blown out first frames in cine and inaccurate exposure in stills are more important than lens correction.

Well i am hoping that the next small update in a few days is a bug fix.

I just care about

- getting a tone curve for 10 bit, as they have done for 8bit, so that 10 bit has the same shadows as 12 bit. And means i can shoot full quality at 25p
- getting some other crops, like DCI 4K
- maybe some settings over scaling quality (sharper vs smoother)

I think if all those that agree email and twitter then they can see that the demand is there.

None of the above strikes me as a difficult development job. If the firmware was open i'm sure we could do it.

cheers
Paul

[paulinventome]

Here's a left field question

Is anyone using the MC21 adaptor? I sort of assumed that it would allow me to use my Zeiss EF lens, at least control aperture but i think that maybe it is hobbled to only work with Sigma EF lenses.

Is this the case - has anyone used any other EF lenses with it?

Cheers
Paul

[BTM_Pix]

52 minutes ago, paulinventome said:

Here's a left field question

Is anyone using the MC21 adaptor? I sort of assumed that it would allow me to use my Zeiss EF lens, at least control aperture but i think that maybe it is hobbled to only work with Sigma EF lenses.

Is this the case - has anyone used any other EF lenses with it?

Cheers
Paul

I have an MC21 but its the Sigma SA to L version so its Sigma lenses only and on the FP whilst they do work I can't get the OIS working on them so I need to dig into that a bit, though I suspect its because the two lenses in question aren't on the compatibility list.

@Andrew Reid has the EF version and has been using it on the S1 and FP with EF lenses so hopefully he will break cover long enough to comment.

Here is a video of someone using it on the FP with a couple of non Sigma EF lenses in the meantime.

As a more general look at how the adapter copes with a broader variety of non-Sigma lenses this uses quite a wide range of them on an S1and a crowd sourced list of tested Sigma and non-Sigma lenses and how they perform on it on the S1.

https://www.tttphotography.com/sigma-mc-21-ef-l-lens-adapter-compatibility/

As always with these things though, the difference between stills and video mode is where all the performance caveats live.

 

[paulinventome]

58 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I have an MC21 but its the Sigma SA to L version so its Sigma lenses only and on the FP whilst they do work I can't get the OIS working on them so I need to dig into that a bit, though I suspect its because the two lenses in question aren't on the compatibility list.

 

Thanks for all this. 

I had a bit of a forehead slapping moment. I was really just trying to get aperture working as it's a Zeiss ZE. But i would move the f stop control and the screen would lighten and darken but the iris didn't move.

It just dawned on me that the camera moves the iris when you take the photo in still mode.

Then in cine mode is it always on as expected.

Duff user syndrome.

And of course the ZE is manual focus anyway... (i have no AF lenses!)

cheers
Paul

[MikhailA]

 

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/download/cameras/firmware/#fp

 

Ver.1.02

It has corrected a phenomenon affecting a very small number of individuals whereby DNG files could not be processed during interval timer shooting.

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby video footage appeared distorted when recorded in MOV format and UHD resolution.

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby video footage appeared distorted when Distortion Correction and Vignetting Correction operated incorrectly near infinity focus.

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby a card error occurred when using certain SD cards.

It has corrected the phenomenon whereby, depending on the Exposure Bracket setting, the camera would shoot bracketed exposures even when the function was set to off.

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby the brightness of the monitor changed depending on the subject even when the monitor exposure in M mode was set to "on".

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby the monitor exposure display in M mode was not displayed correctly when using a mount adapter without an electronic contact.

It has corrected a phenomenon affecting a very small number of individuals whereby the power consumption was greater than usual when the power was turned off.”

 

[Chris Whitten]

OK, fingers crossed. 

[Lars Steenhoff]

Happy to report that both these issues are indeed fixed :

Quote

 

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby the brightness of the monitor changed depending on the subject even when the monitor exposure in M mode was set to "on".

It has corrected a phenomenon whereby the monitor exposure display in M mode was not displayed correctly when using a mount adapter without an electronic contact.

 

I'm so happy that I now can finally use the camera for stills with my manuals lenses with correct exposure preview!

[BTM_Pix]

File this under "Just checking it works/Isolation Cabin Fever" but just had a quick go with the UVC output function to see if a makeshift external monitor can be deployed if you need one but aren't carrying one.

The short answer is yes it can.

You'll need an Android device (its doable on iOS but only with a costly adapter last time I checked) and with older devices such as mine you'll need a USB OTG cable which are only a few quid and useful anyway to connect USB drives etc to the phone.

You'll also need a viewer app and there are a myriad of free and paid ones on the Play store so just search for combinations of "uvc" and "usb webcam". I haven't tested enough of them to draw a conclusion so best to use your own judgement based on whatever downloads/review criteria you normally use. 

When you have the software installed, its a simple case of connecting the USB-C of the FP to your phone (either directly if your phone is USB-C or via the OTG adapter if not) and the default setting of your FP is to auto-detect what you have connected to the USB-C port so you will see a prompt telling your to switch to Cine mode.

So, is it useful?

It could have been and might still be if you don't mind the caveats.

The first caveat is that it will only work in Cine mode.

The second one is that you don't have access to any of the menus (not even the QS) when it is in UVC mode and won't be able change anything, although if you have a lens with manual aperture, set the mode to shutter priority and have Auto ISO set you can some minimal non-optimal control.

The third one is that on my phone (which is only USB2 on the OTG port) the performance isn't great or even approaching not that great in terms of lag and frame rate. On better devices this should be less of an issue.

With those sort of caveats, the question is whether its of any use whatsoever and again the answer for me is still a very frustratingly "almost".

The biggest boon is that with a cheap 1/4" 20 mounting mini ball head and phone grip attached to the FP you can have the elusive tilting monitoring solution which I find invaluable without an EVF. It can also be fully articulated to be front facing if required.

Would you use it to actually do meaningful monitoring with ?

Its performance doesn't make that viable on my device at least but for framing when the camera is not at eye level then its perfectly fine and also for focus checking as most of these apps have a finger pinch function to zoom in.

Do I need that all the time ?

No but as my phone is Android anyway, its far more convenient to have a cable and adapter in my bag to press it into service when I do rather than having to carry a real monitor and all the additional power and mounting stuff that goes with it.

The fourth caveat of course is that it takes up the USB port so no external drive and if you are thinking "well if I'm recording on SD thats not an issue" then welcome to caveat number five which is that you can't record internally either !

So you can frame with it but have to unplug it every time you want to record anything.

Oh well at least it passed a bit of time while we are confined to our house !

[Thomas Hill]

32 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The fourth caveat of course is that it takes up the USB port so no external drive and if you are thinking "well if I'm recording on SD thats not an issue" then welcome to caveat number five which is that you can't record internally either !

Sony to the rescue! But with the one BIG ASS caveat that it's rumored to cost about $1200 US.

"Sony Xperia Pro is a 5G-enabled smartphone encased in a rugged case that features HDMI direct camera connectivity and a massive 6.5-inch CinemaWide display with 4K resolution. A triple lens camera is included too (12MP+12MP+12MP), an 8-megapixel front-facing camera, 8GB RAM and 512GB expandable storage (up to 1TB)."

[Scott_Warren]

Just installed 1.02, and unfortunately it seems like my black level flickering issue is alive and well at the same ISOs where it was before. On the low end, the highest I can go without flickering is 320, and on the high end, the lowest I can do without flickering is 3200. Granted, the image is clean at both of those ISOs, but at this point I may need to send in the body so they can figure out what happened to my unit since this doesn't seem to be a widespread issue. 

 

Edit: Here's what it looks like in Resolve during playback (4k screen capture). Notice the jumping black levels in the waveform. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kMpU9QFj92Ly-h7aOkN5Asb9ombpMolX

[paulinventome]

37 minutes ago, Scott_Warren said:

Just installed 1.02, and unfortunately it seems like my black level flickering issue is alive and well at the same ISOs where it was before. On the low end, the highest I can go without flickering is 320, and on the high end, the lowest I can do without flickering is 3200. Granted, the image is clean at both of those ISOs, but at this point I may need to send in the body so they can figure out what happened to my unit since this doesn't seem to be a widespread issue. 

So between 320 and 3200 it flickers still? Which is the worst and what lens?

cheers
Paul

[Scott_Warren]

32 minutes ago, paulinventome said:

So between 320 and 3200 it flickers still? Which is the worst and what lens?

cheers
Paul

Heya Paul, I'd say the flickering is pretty consistent between ISOs where it occurs. It would be tough to say one is worse than another. 

This is with the 45mm Sigma lens, but it happens the same on the Sigma 35mm. I do have a Pentax K to L-mount adapter where I could test some "dumb" lenses to rule out the lenses, however. 

I did also try out adding the Deflicker node in Resolve, and that seems to make it 99.99% visually undetectable, which is nice. But the thought of using software to fix things after the fact makes me lose sleep at night

https://imgur.com/2c9IcMu
(In case the google drive video is acting up)

[paulinventome]

9 minutes ago, Scott_Warren said:

This is with the 45mm Sigma lens, but it happens the same on the Sigma 35mm. I do have a Pentax K to L-mount adapter where I could test some "dumb" lenses to rule out the lenses, however. 

I did also try out adding the Deflicker node in Resolve, and that seems to make it 99.99% visually undetectable, which is nice. But the thought of using software to fix things after the fact makes me lose sleep at night

I would try with a dumb lens because it will eliminate something at the very least.

It could be an odd setting. It could be the lens communication.

I think it's pretty much limited to you, so setting or the body. who knows

cheers
Paul

 

[Noli]

43 minutes ago, paulinventome said:

I would try with a dumb lens because it will eliminate something at the very least.

It could be an odd setting. It could be the lens communication.

I think it's pretty much limited to you, so setting or the body. who knows

cheers
Paul

 

My flicker is still there as well, I am only using dumb lenses so thats not the issue.

Was really hoping they would fix this and the audio timecode not being embedded in the wav correctly.

[Scott_Warren]

24 minutes ago, Noli said:

My flicker is still there as well, I am only using dumb lenses so thats not the issue.

Was really hoping they would fix this and the audio timecode not being embedded in the wav correctly.

Looks like we're a part of a lucky few, Noli  What's weird to me is that the flicker seems to affect the red and blue channels more than green. 

Wouldn't that indicate something happening with white balance? It makes no difference having a WB preset selected like Sunlight, or manually dialing in 5500K instead. Tried it with disabling all of the auto lens corrections, with autofocus, manual focus etc. I feel like I've tried most variables that would affect it.