Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW

[Devon]

I have. So far no replies unfortunately 😔

Here: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=188556&p=983237#p983237

[Devon]

I reached out to Sigma as well as this forum post. This is the reply I've received from them.

“In regard to the customer's reply, we currently recognize the difference in color parameters for DNG files recorded with Color Modes or with the Color Mode "OFF '' setting to be a specification of the camera and not a bug. To go a little further, the color mode parameters for any Color Mode that is not "OFF" will have the same color parameters when processed in DaVinci. This was done to render colors more natural to the human eye. The Color Mode "OFF" parameters were chosen to preserve the camera's original gamut. That is why the color processing and white balancing is slightly different between the two. If the user prefers to shoot with any of the Color Modes other than "OFF" selected for ease of filming, then we would recommend them to shoot all video with any of the Color Modes other than "OFF" for continuity in grading. 

Please inform the customer that their feedback is valuable to use and we will share it with our engineers for consideration in future product development.
Also, we would like to thank them for their feedback about the wording in the fp user`s manual. We apologize if the wording was misleading in any way and will consider if any revisions are necessary for more clarity.”

I've always had great interactions with Sigma. This is just more proof of that. As colorists though, don't we all prefer the "original gamut" over any creative interpretation?

[OleB]

14 hours ago, Devon said:

I reached out to Sigma as well as this forum post. This is the reply I've received from them.

“In regard to the customer's reply, we currently recognize the difference in color parameters for DNG files recorded with Color Modes or with the Color Mode "OFF '' setting to be a specification of the camera and not a bug. To go a little further, the color mode parameters for any Color Mode that is not "OFF" will have the same color parameters when processed in DaVinci. This was done to render colors more natural to the human eye. The Color Mode "OFF" parameters were chosen to preserve the camera's original gamut. That is why the color processing and white balancing is slightly different between the two. If the user prefers to shoot with any of the Color Modes other than "OFF" selected for ease of filming, then we would recommend them to shoot all video with any of the Color Modes other than "OFF" for continuity in grading. 

Please inform the customer that their feedback is valuable to use and we will share it with our engineers for consideration in future product development.
Also, we would like to thank them for their feedback about the wording in the fp user`s manual. We apologize if the wording was misleading in any way and will consider if any revisions are necessary for more clarity.”

I've always had great interactions with Sigma. This is just more proof of that. As colorists though, don't we all prefer the "original gamut" over any creative interpretation?

Thanks for checking directly with SIGMA. Agree the best choice is "off" which is for my use case, using ProRes RAW, anyway hardcoded. 🙂

[Llaasseerr]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:05 PM, Devon said:

I've always had great interactions with Sigma. This is just more proof of that. As colorists though, don't we all prefer the "original gamut" over any creative interpretation?

Thanks for doing this work. It's definitely a problem with OFF mode that Sigma have not supplied some kind of input transform for their original sensor gamut. It's possible they don't know how to define the gamut, or they are just lazy.

For the user, the information should be in the DNG metadata so that the image is correctly interpreted in Resolve. Another alternative might be if they provided a LUT from the native sensor space to something like Rec2020. Some people are creating their own input transforms LUTs with tools like dcamprof, but that can be a complex process.

It's an interesting observation you made that using DNG Converter actually means that the gamut behaviour changes so that the other color modes start to behave like OFF. I had a look in DNG Profile Editor after running through DNG Converter, and that seems to be the case.

From some of my early tests with other libraw readers besides Resolve, the DNG conversion does seem to actually reconfigure metadata to convert to other color spaces more accurately. The matrix tags are definitely being changed, confirmed by exiftool. So far, I just tested with OFF files, but the implication is that once ran through DNG Converter that it doesn't matter what the color type in-camera was.

I do remember contacting Sigma through their web page wanting to give them feedback on the fp as an industry professional and I never heard back. Can you tell me how you actually got them to respond? Or if you have an email address you can pass on either here or as a DM?

 

 

 

[Llaasseerr]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:05 PM, Devon said:

"The Color Mode "OFF" parameters were chosen to preserve the camera's original gamut. That is why the color processing and white balancing is slightly different between the two."

Just wanted to add that it's interesting that Sigma confirmed what I have suspected for a while. But it's like Arri putting the Alexa out there without having Arri Wide Gamut defined - not helpful! They can't say that this is a professional tool for dp's and colorists and be making amateurish moves like this. I particularly don't like the fact they are chastising some users saying that there is a "responsibility" when shooting raw to know what you're doing, when they are just not providing the right info.

Look at what Apple has done with the iphone 15. They have knocked it out of the park. They defined an Apple Log spec, released a white paper and there is an ACES IDT already in Resolve. And internally you can shoot 4444 so it is effectively RAW anyway. 

If Sigma just added a few more features to the fp via firmware, this camera would be a beast.

[Llaasseerr]

1 hour ago, Llaasseerr said:

Just wanted to add that it's interesting that Sigma confirmed what I have suspected for a while. But it's like Arri putting the Alexa out there without having Arri Wide Gamut defined - not helpful! They can't say that this is a professional tool for dp's and colorists and be making amateurish moves like this. I particularly don't like the fact they are chastising some users saying that there is a "responsibility" when shooting raw to know what you're doing, when they are just not providing the right info.

Look at what Apple has done with the iphone 15. They have knocked it out of the park. They defined an Apple Log spec, released a white paper and there is an ACES IDT already in Resolve. And internally you can shoot 4444 so it is effectively RAW anyway. 

If Sigma just added a few more features to the fp via firmware, this camera would be a beast.

Forgot to add that Apple also released LUTs. For a PHONE.

[Devon]

I couldn't agree more. There are certainly a few things that Sigma need to define for a proper DI workflow. I understand releasing a camera early and providing firmware updates later as a plan to sell a camera. We might be a few years out from a proper DI workflow documentation from Sigma. 

That being said, the camera most definitely is a beast. I've been very impressed so far!

@Llaasseerr I simply followed their email address listed on their site: info@sigmaphoto.com

It took them a few days to reply, but I appreciate that they did.

[Devon]

On an unfortunate note, I had to send my FP in for repair. Randomly one a week ago, the camera would not turn on. And that was after just sitting off all night. The night before it worked just fine.

Sigma New York told me this: 
"The 3rd party battery used was an improper voltage and fried the Main PCB Board. The voltage of your battery was 7.4. The standard for the camera is 7.2"

I've had this camera for about 5-6 weeks. I've shot more than a few terabytes in the time that I've had it. During shoots (frankly, 99% of the time I've had it) I ran the Smallrig NP-F battery plate with NP-F batteries through a dummy battery into the camera. See links below. It is my understanding that voltage fluctuates.

The camera is listed as "7.2v 2A". The Smallrig battery plate outputs "7.4v 2A" (according to a comment on their site.) The dummy battery lists its specs as "7V-9V 2A".

A few questions: 

1. It seems hard to believe the only 0.2 Voltage increase fried the board? Is it possible with such a slight increase? It's odd because im pretty sure voltage fluctuates with battery usage.
2. I assume the dummy battery doesn't convert 7.4v to 9v right? Wouldn't it just pass through the voltage it's given?

One more interesting note: The last night it still worked, I ejected my Samsung T5 drive from the camera after shooting a few clips, plugged it into my Mac, organized my files, then it wouldn't eject. It wouldn't let me force eject it either. So I decided to just pull it. Then I plugged it back into my camera where it belongs. Then it just sat powered off all night. Next day, nothing. I plugged in that same hard drive a few minutes ago, and it will not mount to my computer. So maybe a file system error? Could it be possible that the hard drive caused an error in the camera's firmware?

I'm at a loss, because it seems all my power options are to specification (or very very close). I read in another forum from someone else who contacted Sigma, and they said that the FP could run between 5v-9v. 

Please help. 😅

Links to products:
Smallrig battery plate
Dummy battery

[BTM_Pix]

I have had two T5 drives go rogue on me.

Google “T5 Mac Won’t Mount” and you will see it is a common issue with not much consensus how to fix it.

In my case, the only devices that could recognise them afterwards were the BM P4K and 6K, a SteamDeck and the files app of my iPhone. The latter one can give you a path to recover the files by copying them on to your phone and then back out to another drive/SD card.

After doing that and then formatting them again they were able to work again but I don’t really trust them for anything except transfers when I still have the original media.

They are also very finicky when it comes to cables and the only really reliable way I’ve found is using a USB to C cable as C to C is an issue with mine.

To clarify, I have used them in the FP but the issues came after them being in the Mac.

Obviously the number of reports of the issue also suggests it’s nothing to do with the FP !

Samsung have their own utility software you can download so you might get some joy there but if you have an iPhone or iPad around then I’d try that first.

I have had no such issues with the T7 drives.

[Llaasseerr]

9 hours ago, Devon said:

On an unfortunate note, I had to send my FP in for repair. Randomly one a week ago, the camera would not turn on. And that was after just sitting off all night. The night before it worked just fine.

Sigma New York told me this: 
"The 3rd party battery used was an improper voltage and fried the Main PCB Board. The voltage of your battery was 7.4. The standard for the camera is 7.2"

 

Hm, that's disheartening. I just bought a Powrig DC adapter for the fp that I want to use with two batteries that has an "up to" 7.4V output. I don't know if that's any better than the dummy battery you bought. Usually I would use a d-tap to dummy battery, but "reasons".

I'm waiting for that to turn up, so fingers crossed it doesn't fry the camera otherwise I'll have to bin it because I imagine the repair is not cheap and it's out of warranty now.

 

[Llaasseerr]

9 hours ago, Devon said:

I couldn't agree more. There are certainly a few things that Sigma need to define for a proper DI workflow. I understand releasing a camera early and providing firmware updates later as a plan to sell a camera. We might be a few years out from a proper DI workflow documentation from Sigma. 

That being said, the camera most definitely is a beast. I've been very impressed so far!

@Llaasseerr I simply followed their email address listed on their site: info@sigmaphoto.com

It took them a few days to reply, but I appreciate that they did.

I've  actually been okay with the the approach of releasing firmware after the fact, but they need to keep at it. I'll try again with the email contact.

[Llaasseerr]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:33 PM, Devon said:

On an unfortunate note, I had to send my FP in for repair. Randomly one a week ago, the camera would not turn on. And that was after just sitting off all night. The night before it worked just fine.

Sigma New York told me this: 
"The 3rd party battery used was an improper voltage and fried the Main PCB Board. The voltage of your battery was 7.4. The standard for the camera is 7.2"

I've had this camera for about 5-6 weeks. I've shot more than a few terabytes in the time that I've had it. During shoots (frankly, 99% of the time I've had it) I ran the Smallrig NP-F battery plate with NP-F batteries through a dummy battery into the camera. See links below. It is my understanding that voltage fluctuates.

The camera is listed as "7.2v 2A". The Smallrig battery plate outputs "7.4v 2A" (according to a comment on their site.) The dummy battery lists its specs as "7V-9V 2A".

A few questions: 

1. It seems hard to believe the only 0.2 Voltage increase fried the board? Is it possible with such a slight increase? It's odd because im pretty sure voltage fluctuates with battery usage.
2. I assume the dummy battery doesn't convert 7.4v to 9v right? Wouldn't it just pass through the voltage it's given?

One more interesting note: The last night it still worked, I ejected my Samsung T5 drive from the camera after shooting a few clips, plugged it into my Mac, organized my files, then it wouldn't eject. It wouldn't let me force eject it either. So I decided to just pull it. Then I plugged it back into my camera where it belongs. Then it just sat powered off all night. Next day, nothing. I plugged in that same hard drive a few minutes ago, and it will not mount to my computer. So maybe a file system error? Could it be possible that the hard drive caused an error in the camera's firmware?

I'm at a loss, because it seems all my power options are to specification (or very very close). I read in another forum from someone else who contacted Sigma, and they said that the FP could run between 5v-9v. 

Please help. 😅

Links to products:
Smallrig battery plate
Dummy battery

I just wanted to update you that my DC coupler dummy battery arrived and although it was bought from Powrig, it turns out it's the same as the one you bought off Amazon. Re-reading your post, I get now that you're not saying the dummy battery was at issue but rather the voltage coming from the battery itself - at least according to Sigma. 

So far with a quick test with an FXLion battery it's working, but did your camera just randomly get fried after some regular usage? That would be disconcerting.

[Devon]

I’m not sure what caused the issue. Except that I pulled the dummy battery out and back in with the camera still switched on a few times throughout the past few weeks I’ve had it. I’ve always done this with all of my cameras when breaking down my rig after a shoot. I’ve always just left the switch set to “on” with the camera. This is the only cause I can think of. 

Sigma UK told me that the camera expects voltages between 7V and 9V. So I wouldn’t worry about your dummy battery. I’d worry more about the plate you’re using and it’s voltage and amperage it’s outputting. 
 

I’ve also just ordered the powrig dummy battery. I asked powrig if the dummy battery had any advanced circuitry for regulating power. They assured me that it did. I’m not exactly sure if this is true or not 🤷‍♂️ But they assured me 😅
 

I’ve also purchased the newest NP-F battery plate from SmallRig. It has short circuit protection built into all outputs. It was expensive, but my hopes are that I’ll have it for many years using with various camera rigs. 

So my hope is that the combination of both of these accessories (powrig dummy battery and advanced SmallRig plate) avoids this issue of any PCB board frying again lol.