Aussie Ash Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hi Andrew Thanks for suggesting to look at the options in depth. Canon 60D can still be tracked down for about Aus $680 new so EF lenses would give better compatibility with Black magic a couple on years down the track.& option of Magic Lantern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I wonder what all that fuss about Vitaly finding RAW code in the D5200 firmware was about. Seems to have come to nothing ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You'd include the GH3 in the "innovative" column? From what I've read, it's already being eclipsed as old news. And, it seems the RX10 would be THE "easiest choice" of the whole lot. Just haven't seen anything from it that even came close to an organic cinematic look... yet. Andrew, I get where your general interests are and appear to be headed. Don't blame you... the are some incredibly interesting things being done with anamorphic, raw, prores, magic lantern, etc. if you've got the patience and budget to keep buying expensive add-ons, rigs, storage, faster computers, etc. But can you or anyone else here recommend a site/forum that takes an intelligent look at the "easier" choices? I get the attraction to cutting edge innovation, but some of us simply want to get out there and rely on creativity rather than get lost in tiring/expensive workflows that could ultimately be obsolete in a year. When I saw what Brandon Li was doing with his little RX100 & d5200, it was clear that one need not get lost on the bleeding edge of "innovation" in order to make fine creative work. Aussie Ash 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I wonder what all that fuss about Vitaly finding RAW code in the D5200 firmware was about. Seems to have come to nothing ... Vitaly found out what the guys at nikonhackers forum had discovered. Here's the post about that: http://simeonpilgrim.com/blog/2013/06/30/live-view-silent-raw-on-d7000/ It seems like Nikon has locked down their firmware very well. I really wish they'd open up a bit more about it, but I doubt that will happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I can understand that Nikon might not be so glamorous than some others. But having a very balance camera for me is sometime much better. As a working professional (more photo than video), I understand the problem of having a good and reliable system to work with. Having a camera that is true high resolution comparable to the gh2, about 12 stop of DR, no moire/aliasing, very good low light and 4.4.2 high birate prores if I use an external recorder that would go straight into any editor and cinema 35mm size sensor without any addon that might fail. For example there is a lot of hype for the Sony R10 because Sony said that it is sampling all the pixel, but these Nikons are surely sampling a lot more of the 24 megapixel of the toshiba sensor to get the high resolution moire free image of the latest d5200/d7100. They are just stupid not advertising it. What is the DR of the Sony and the tiny sensor compared to the Nikon Apsc ones. My only gripe now is 10 bit. A d7100 with a Ninja is such a good combo, peaking, false colour, zebras etc in such a small package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 19, 2013 Administrators Share Posted November 19, 2013 You'd include the GH3 in the "innovative" column? From what I've read, it's already being eclipsed as old news. And, it seems the RX10 would be THE "easiest choice" of the whole lot. Just haven't seen anything from it that even came close to an organic cinematic look... yet. Well RX10 is certainly very interesting. But it isn't an interchangeable lens camera! Quite a big difference. That lens at F2.8 constant is lovely but there are times when F2.8 just won't cut it. The sensor is smaller. The built in ND filter and optional XLR add on are great. But it suffers some moire, the codec has a low bitrate compared to the GH3 and I'm not convinced the image will be better than a GH3... We shall see. I pick up mine tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 19, 2013 Administrators Share Posted November 19, 2013 For example there is a lot of hype for the Sony RX10 because Sony said that it is sampling all the pixel They may be sampling all the pixels but they still have to throw them away on the image processor at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I may be being lazy asking this here, but was there ever a definitive conclusion about whether using a Ninja/HDMI recorder with the D5200/7100 makes an appreciable difference to image quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Just found this on youtube. Most useful footage I've seen so far (that's really not saying much though), but doesn't answer any low-light questions. http://youtu.be/C93diqMMmDw skiphunt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Orriginal D5300 .mov file to download. The good news for me is that when lifting the shadows there is no banding :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 @Matt... I saw that earlier. Looks good except the background is doing something odd. Could be a distortion caused by whichever method he used to conform down to 24p. I'm waiting of for better testing too, but also eyeing the Sony RX10. There are a couple test clips on vimeo for an upcoming camerlabs review, but they don't show the low-light performance. The auto-focus looks as bad as the D5200 though. Don't get why some are dismissing this camera as not enough difference from the D5200... citing only the GPS and WiFi. Doesn't having 60p count as a significant difference? Does for me. All I want is a good image, 60p, able to use my current Nikon lenses, and great low-light with at least a reduction in FPN. Also want great stills performance with excellent resolution. Haven't seen great stills performance from the GH3 and I don't want to invest in the m4/3 system. So that one's mostly out for me. Not crazy about the stills performance I've seen so far from the RX10, especially higher ISO, but it's not bad. Not crazy about being stuck with that one lens, although it may be all I really need. Leaning toward the d5300, since it mostly meets my requirements and is not expensive. But am still on the fence until I see some good test footage from both cameras. Was really disappointed that Andrew didn't feel inspired enough to test it, but I get it's not in his current line of sight and general interest. His reviews tend to be very thorough and fair in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Orriginal D5300 .mov file to download. The good news for me is that when lifting the shadows there is no banding :) Yes I saw this the other day and tentatively came to the same conclusion. I hope we're right but I want to wait for a more rigorous test. The stills certainly seem to be performing better at high ISOs than the 5200 though. The banding is the deciding factor for me - 60p would be nice, as would the large LCD etc, but as I already have a G6 low light is the only reason I'm looking at a Nikon. If this one improves/eliminates the banding then I will be very, very happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Sincerely, I can't understand how anyone interested by DSLR video can feel exited by any camera from Sony. They can put all the bell and whistle of the world but in the end the image is disappointing for me. I can't bear aliasing/moire in 2013/2014 when lowly $ 700 Nikon/Panasonic camera don't have it. People just fall for the hype, they are just protecting there higher end video camera line like Canon. Look at Nikon Sony sensor moire/aliasing D800/D7000 etc... Toshiba/Nikon sensor no more moire/aliasing D4/D5200/D7100 with the same expeed 3 processors. I was praying (and still until I see test for moire on the D5300) that the sensor from the D5300 does not have a Sony sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 @Danyyyel, I generally don't like the look of Sony... but I have to admit, I've seen some impressive work from those little RX100 compacts. I'll be traveling with whatever I get. Likely either via motorcycle or backpacking. I'm a still photographer from way back. Also, studied film and have a background in motion (though I haven't done anything in a long time). My needs are to be able to get great stills AND very good video that can at least be shaped into something organic looking, and not as cold and sterile as the Sony footage I've seen from the past. As much as I don't like the Sony company of the past... I can't deny that their new cameras over the last couple of years have been impressive. On paper, the RX10 meets most of my needs. I'd rather stick with Nikon since that's what I know, but if the D5300 does not meet at least minimum expectation, ie. at least as good as the D5200's image, with 60p, and no significant banding or FPN, then I'll be forced to get something else. Also, with the Nikon I'll certainly have to carry extra audio gear. I'm curious... since Sony has made some very highly regarded portable audio recorders such as the now 3-year-old pcm-m10 among others, I wonder if that same audio tech made it into the RX10? The little cpm-m10 is supposed to have some of the quietest pre-amps of all the little portable recorders. Has anyone tested the pre-amps in the RX10 yet? With a good external mic? And, is it possible to record audio only with the RX10? The "easiest" choice for my needs is likely the D5300 and it's also the lightest on my wallet. ;) Unless the camera is earning it's keep immediately, it doesn't make sense to invest in expensive gear that will be eclipsed by the next gear-porn within 6 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 @Matt... I saw that earlier. Looks good except the background is doing something odd. Could be a distortion caused by whichever method he used to conform down to 24p. I'm waiting of for better testing too, but also eyeing the Sony RX10. There are a couple test clips on vimeo for an upcoming camerlabs review, but they don't show the low-light performance. The auto-focus looks as bad as the D5200 though. Don't get why some are dismissing this camera as not enough difference from the D5200... citing only the GPS and WiFi. Doesn't having 60p count as a significant difference? Does for me. All I want is a good image, 60p, able to use my current Nikon lenses, and great low-light with at least a reduction in FPN. Also want great stills performance with excellent resolution. Haven't seen great stills performance from the GH3 and I don't want to invest in the m4/3 system. So that one's mostly out for me. Not crazy about the stills performance I've seen so far from the RX10, especially higher ISO, but it's not bad. Not crazy about being stuck with that one lens, although it may be all I really need. Leaning toward the d5300, since it mostly meets my requirements and is not expensive. But am still on the fence until I see some good test footage from both cameras. Was really disappointed that Andrew didn't feel inspired enough to test it, but I get it's not in his current line of sight and general interest. His reviews tend to be very thorough and fair in my opinion. I think that's just heat haze coming off the roads that's distorting the background. Mixed with YouTube compression it looks a bit mushy. The RX10 and D5300 are really very different cameras - almost complimentary. The RX10 is an always-with-you, ready to go, tiny ENG video camera with a nice image that with judicious editing can be cut with more filmic DSLR stuff. The D5300, like all DSLR's, is closer to the film aesthetic. Even if the RX10 has decent low light performance, with a fixed f2.8 lens and smaller sensor there is no way it is going to match the 5300 in that area. I agree that Andrew may have dismissed the D5300 a little early. If it really does improve on the low-light ability of the D5200 AND has 60p, well that is something unique in the (rather wide) price bracket. The closest I can think of off-hand is the C300 (though I'm not very up on my Sony ILC's)! I understand his frustration with the Nikon mount but all my glass, bar a 14mm Panny, is Nikon AIS so it's not an issue for me. I've made a personal decision not to get into the raw/prores race yet (at least until the cameras are a bit more user friendly and storage drops in price) but yes I understand why Andrew isn't so exited about the D5300 right now. Things move fast in this world. 11 months ago I was ready to drop £3000 on a 5D3, then the D5200 came out and for what is now around 1/6th the price of the 5D you get a comparable h264 image. Then ML RAW came along and the 5D3 is back on the table, fighting it out with the Pocket for the "best camera to waste your precious creative time getting frustrated with technology and obsessing over image quality with" award. I'm sure you know this, but the 5300 is very small (smallest Nikon DSLR) so that is a plus for your needs I think? It sounds to me like you're favouring the 5300 and that makes sense if you have some decent Nikon glass already. Bear in mind though that Panasonic cams can take nikon lenses with an adapter, and are small and definitively the best all-rounders (which also seems to be what you are after). The convenience of an EVF is a huge thing as well, particularly if you're concerned about size and don't want to use a loupe. If you really need 60p, I would look at the G6 - it's superb and perfectly good in low light (even better with a speed booster). If you need superb low-light, the 5200 is still amazing even with the FPN. If you NEED both 60p and low light then the 5300 is your only camera I think. Personally I would never buy the RX10 as my only/main camera - I'd feel very restricted for the kind of work I do (more arty than pure run&gun). If the banding on the D5300 really is improved, and it's not a completely new sensor with some other weird quirks, I'll buy it. With 60p also, it will hopefully keep me happy me until high-bitrate cameras are a bit more evolved and 1TB SSD's don't require a second mortgage. :) Aussie Ash and skiphunt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Hi Andrew Thanks for suggesting to look at the options in depth. Canon 60D can still be tracked down for about Aus $680 new so EF lenses would give better compatibility with Black magic a couple on years down the track.& option of Magic Lantern. I really wouldn't go for an APS-C Canon right now unless you really want raw. Even then the 60D has moire and aliasing problems and its raw output is poor compared to the higher-end Canons. It doesn't sound like you are planning on shooting raw, so if you really are considering the 60D, perhaps look at the 600D - it's basically the same camera with better video features for a lower price (the 650/700D don't improve on it for video unless you want a touch screen). But the G6 and 5200/5300 are far superior in every way unless you want the headache of RAW, and even then there are real compromises. If you already have Nikon glass, I really can't see much point in investing in Canon lenses unless you're talking about buying L-series stuff. Nikons fit on anything. Hope this is helpful ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 @Matt, I'm fairly sure I'll be going for the D5300. The only reason I haven't yet is that the store I want to buy it from (one that gives me 45 days to return) doesn't have them yet. I think they're trying to blow out their D5200 stock first. Since I have to wait... am keeping an open mind with the Sony. If it's on-board audio happens to use the fantastically quiet audio pre-amps that Sony portables like the pcm-m10 use... and I could even record wild/ambient sound independently with the camera as well (doubt it) then not having to carry a separate audio rig might sway me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 @Matt, I'm fairly sure I'll be going for the D5300. The only reason I haven't yet is that the store I want to buy it from (one that gives me 45 days to return) doesn't have them yet. I think they're trying to blow out their D5200 stock first. Since I have to wait... am keeping an open mind with the Sony. If it's on-board audio happens to use the fantastically quiet audio pre-amps that Sony portables like the pcm-m10 use... and I could even record wild/ambient sound independently with the camera as well (doubt it) then not having to carry a separate audio rig might sway me. Don't Sony make an XLR grip for the RX10, or is that the A7R? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c2dd7b52878779b55f43cc8c269267c1 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Cameralabs have posted their review, including decent video section (most informative I've seen so far): http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D5300/ I just chatted to Gordon Laing on Vimeo and he says he's going to add some high-ISO (above 1600) video tests to the review soon. skiphunt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Don't Sony make an XLR grip for the RX10, or is that the A7R? Yes, they do (RX10). With the Nikon I'm pretty much forced to a dual audio system. If the on-board pre-amps are quiet and of very good quality, together with having a headphone jack and level meters you can adjust while recording... that's something to consider for sure. It's really a shame they didn't at least put a headphone jack on the D5300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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