Jim Jannard steps down from RED

[Emanuel]

Entrepreneurs create concepts, let alone jobs and tools when it's the case as it happened there. Offer and demand. Markets.

Progress.

[Ed_David]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Entrepreneurs create concepts, let alone jobs and tools when it's the case as it happened there. Offer and demand. Markets.

Progress.

 

Should you be celebrating a man who almost shut down EOS's blog in a threat of a lawsuit?  A man who got his employee to lie under oath about Lance Armstrong doping?  Who lied to the public about the origins of his camera?  Who is responsible for the Red Hydrogen, literally the worst tech product of 2018?  Who has bullied and banned people left and right in the cinematography forum?  

How is this man superior to other people?  

Why are we even discussing him or red?

I owned the red one mx.  I owned 2 of them.  I owned the red epic.

It was a great camera.  Flawed of course, how long it took to boot up.  The hard drive would hang a lot.  And it would overheat constantly. That fan noise.  The hard to get to bnc input and timecode input.  But a great image.  They never went past that.  The dragon you couldn't expose past 320 ASA.  Then every camera after that - the same look, pretty much.  The same greenish color cast.  

If you want to do alternative history Emanuel.  Let's say red never happened.  As everyone else has said, the canon 5d mark ii happened.  The iphone still happened.  The need for DSLR's to survive in the face of cell phones taking over their market forced them to make them stills/video hybrid cameras.

Would the sony f3 had been so cheap?  Would the sony f65 have been so cheap?  Would the alexa have been so cheap?  Maybe not.  But the tech existed.  Maybe some other company like black magic would have come in earlier.  Maybe JVC or Nikon would have gotten into video and lowered the prices. Maybe the 5d ii would have convince canon to release a 4k camera that does raw earlier in the game.  Maybe Arri would have as the sequel to the D21. Or Sony could have since they are leaders in cmos technology.

Red One MX shook up the industry, great.  Everything after that didn't.  So what.  That's nothing that special.

Jim didn't leave a legacy.  He put the guy in charge of his message board as the president.  

And that's not a good business move.

Look what's happened.

You think the Gizmodo, I mean the Komodo, is going to save them? From the guy whose greatest creation is dvxuser.com? 

Why would people buy their cameras now that everyone else has caught up, or surpassed them, with better skintones?  Most people I know who are owner operators moved to the alexa mini, or downgraded to the Ursa Mini G2 or FS7 or C300 ii.

There's no place for their 30k cameras in this market - it's too tight.

And if a 10k camera can do pretty much what a 30k camera can do, and now that red has no "mystique" to its name, why would anyone put 30k into a camera system, especially one that looks like with hydrogen, is not going that well.

Move on, man.

They are dinosaurs. Never adapted.  Chasing 8k over skintones or dynamic range or ISO sensitivity.

It's a crazy world, these cameras.

The friggin Sigma FP1 does raw full frame for 2k.

How does Red compete?  With their overpriced redmini mags?  How?

How are they going to survive?

Good riddence to this bully company.

And hello to the new guys.

Hello to E2.  Hello to BMD.  Hello again to Panasonic that is adapting ever since it's glory days of the dv100 and hvx100.  And hello again to canon with the c500 ii and idx iii that look like they are taking big risks.  Hello to the new sony fs7 ii sequel whatever it is called.

They are all trying their butts off to stay relevant in the current era.  Red, come on, with the Komodo?  It isn't even really announced.  Just what it is not.  What's the price?  Does it have internal NDs?

Come on.  Don't waste your time on them.

Time to go.

BYE BYE Red.  

 

[Emanuel]

Ed, you could never hear from me that he or someone else is superior to anyone. For a simple reason if not else, I don't take success as a rank to classify people. Some other attributes are much crucial to my sensibility and judgement : )

I don't know details on the Lance Armstrong story and I surely don't take as granted everything I read on Internet.

For some reason I'd rather take my filmmaking background over my, or anyone's legal realm any time. Courts are the most unfaithful jungles out there. It doesn't shock me at all someone to lie under oath if so. There are reasons beyond our own understanding more often than we should. Ah the public... Instead, shocks me to know there are innocent people under death penalty because the system or someone decided so. And nobody or too little care. I don't have how to believe in Santa.

As far as Andrew's episode, I've tried to bring any humble potential I can, using diplomacy between such two sides I have a friendly connection with, only in order to not result any harm to any one. Because they simply don't deserve. Both of them. They know what I think. I hope to not be disappointed.

We're discussing RED because we live in a free society and someone has opened a thread on topic : D On Hydrogen project, it's a hybrid, we can't say the cup is full but is different to be half empty. I've heard it's a product ahead of its time, more than a phone outdated each six months (E : -)

[Emanuel]

With the respective differences, such RED hatred reminds me this recent one:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/10/ibm-casts-doubt-googles-claims-quantum-supremacy

Who wants to buy a IBM today? When there's Google and their Androids? LOL

Last but not least, I don't know where a few of you were in 2009, but I know where I was and I still keep my old tech useful without celebrating campaigns against whoever wherever be:

A brand agnostic is not an idle voice : -)

[Ed_David]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Ed, you could never hear from me that he or someone else is superior to anyone. For a simple reason if not else, I don't take success as a rank to classify people. Some other attributes are much crucial to my sensibility and judgement : )

I don't know details on the Lance Armstrong story and I surely don't take as granted everything I read on Internet.

I agree, I don't take anything for granted either that I read on the internet. Or information I get from anywhere.   I always do research first.  And when working on news stories, I always call or email the main source.  Hence was the case on the Jinnimag latest video.  I personally emailed Dr. Fossum, the inventor of CMOS, who is heavily featured in the latest Jinnimag video.  I got his response, which he later published to imaging world blog, that corroborated most of what the Jinnimag video said.

The Jannard silencing of his employee during the Lance Armstrong criminal trial was reported on ABC, broken by the Sunday Times journalist David Walsh and featured in a ABC documentary, "Stop at Nothing: the Lance Armstrong Story."  ABC is one of Australia's largest tv networks, and the Sunday Times a large UK paper: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

 SOURCE:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/sponsor-turned-blind-eye-to-lance-armstrongs-doping/5564074 

More about David Walsh: "David Joseph Walsh (born 17 June 1955) is an Irish sports journalist and chief sports writer for the British newspaper The Sunday Times. He is a four-time Irish Sportswriter of the Year and a three-time UK Sportswriter of the Year. Walsh was the key journalist in uncovering the doping program by Lance Armstrong and the US Postal Service Cycling Team, leading to a lifetime ban from cycling for Armstrong and being stripped of his seven Tour titles."

SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Walsh_(journalist)

From my research into Red, as a doc filmmaker, I would draw the conclusion that Mr. Jannard is not a figure to admire, nor attempt to defend or find value in. This is especially revealing in Walsh's award-winning journalism about Lance Armstrong and doping, and Jannard's involvement in the matter, which is quite prominent.   There are many, many other entrepreneurs who should be studied and cherished.  Still flawed people, like all of us, but still strong and ethical people. 

From what I can understand, he works on an ethical level that is different than most people, similar to Lance Armstrong.  Perhaps why they were friends. 

I am glad you tried to bring peace between EOSHD and Reduser.  These two forums should co-exist peacefully.  A lot of good people at reduser.  That's what makes me upset - that these good people invested thousands of their hard-earned dollars into a camera system that is based on "myths" and now, are watching the value of their investment crash as the "myth" of red has been removed.

Please, Emanuel, if you do one thing in the next 24 hrs, read the ABC news article link and find out more about journalist's David Walsh's story.  And if you want, I am willing to contact David Walsh to find out more about Jannard.

I personally don't have the time or the desire to find out more, but if you want, I will do it for you and get a follow-up comment onto his character and get permission to post it on this forum.  If you can do it, great, one less thing for me to do! Perhaps that will change your attitude towards Mr. Jannard as an example of, as you wrote, "progress."

[Waynes]

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Anyway, whatever. He is not my friend, he is not my enemy. He certainly had a great time in this planet and a lot more resources to enjoy his retirement than most of us (or all of us together!) will ever have.

Godspeed!

Yeah, the island, and he still won't come over to visit me, or find me that job.  I know life sucks, and you can't keep your word all the time, but integrity still means a lot to me.  My grandfather was born a century before last.  I kind of like the guy though.

[Snowbro]

komodo will only be 24-30p according to jarred

[Waynes]

Only 24-30.   I wonder why not 50/60?   The high frame rate 3D stuff might become a thing, if auto 3D displays come out and go popular.

[Mako Sports]

48 minutes ago, Waynes said:

Only 24-30.   I wonder why not 50/60?   The high frame rate 3D stuff might become a thing, if auto 3D displays come out and go popular.

gotta get the upsale some way. 

[Snowbro]

1 hour ago, Waynes said:

Only 24-30.   I wonder why not 50/60?   The high frame rate 3D stuff might become a thing, if auto 3D displays come out and go popular.

It's basically an action cam for them, but designed for 23.976 movies (sorry hobbit). That sigma fp also can't do 50/60p in its highest res (4k), so i'll take a hard pass on both of these. Then the pocket 6k gives a great image, but has many shortfalls I don't care to work around. Sadly, the 1DX III looks to be the best cam for me, but I probably won't buy it.

[sanveer]

20 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Yes, you're also right. Even though, let's not forget RED helped to 5DII came out as well as nathlas accurately left expressed, the most closer serious contender by then was EUR 103,000 (Cinealta F900) I well recall if not else because I was in the middle of a cooperative project only to afford one unit.

I myself jumped out the RED wagon as far as investment concerns when 5DII just arrived. My purchase is from early 2009 and I even produced a feature shot on this camera model among several other projects shot on VDSLR as called then, this one ending where we aimed for once shot directly to the big screen:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?121856-Kickstarter-campaign

 

Still here are three threads by my initiative on reduser before I had joined Andrew when he created our community. The last one on a film-out report. The 2nd one counts among others with the participation of Graeme Nattress himself (the man behind RED's compressed RAW):

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?20506-More-Canon-5D-Mark-II-footage

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?22403-New-Canon-5D-Mark-II-samples

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?29404-5D-Mark-II

I may disagree with your exalted praise of Red and the shocking personal actions and stories about Jim.

But this film trailer you shared, is so hilarious and well written. I would love to see the full film. Is it online somewhere (VoD, youtube etc)?. 

[Mako Sports]

6 hours ago, Snowbro said:

 Sadly, the 1DX III looks to be the best cam for me, but I probably won't buy it.

I bet you $50 your gonna buy the new 1DX  ?

[Snowbro]

10 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

I bet you $50 your gonna buy the new 1DX  ?

I can't I just bought a $6000 short throw laser projector for my bedroom lol

[Emanuel]

19 hours ago, Ed_David said:

I agree, I don't take anything for granted either that I read on the internet. Or information I get from anywhere.   I always do research first.  And when working on news stories, I always call or email the main source.  Hence was the case on the Jinnimag latest video.  I personally emailed Dr. Fossum, the inventor of CMOS, who is heavily featured in the latest Jinnimag video.  I got his response, which he later published to imaging world blog, that corroborated most of what the Jinnimag video said.

The Jannard silencing of his employee during the Lance Armstrong criminal trial was reported on ABC, broken by the Sunday Times journalist David Walsh and featured in a ABC documentary, "Stop at Nothing: the Lance Armstrong Story."  ABC is one of Australia's largest tv networks, and the Sunday Times a large UK paper: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

 SOURCE:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/sponsor-turned-blind-eye-to-lance-armstrongs-doping/5564074 

More about David Walsh: "David Joseph Walsh (born 17 June 1955) is an Irish sports journalist and chief sports writer for the British newspaper The Sunday Times. He is a four-time Irish Sportswriter of the Year and a three-time UK Sportswriter of the Year. Walsh was the key journalist in uncovering the doping program by Lance Armstrong and the US Postal Service Cycling Team, leading to a lifetime ban from cycling for Armstrong and being stripped of his seven Tour titles."

SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Walsh_(journalist)

From my research into Red, as a doc filmmaker, I would draw the conclusion that Mr. Jannard is not a figure to admire, nor attempt to defend or find value in. This is especially revealing in Walsh's award-winning journalism about Lance Armstrong and doping, and Jannard's involvement in the matter, which is quite prominent.   There are many, many other entrepreneurs who should be studied and cherished.  Still flawed people, like all of us, but still strong and ethical people. 

From what I can understand, he works on an ethical level that is different than most people, similar to Lance Armstrong.  Perhaps why they were friends. 

I am glad you tried to bring peace between EOSHD and Reduser.  These two forums should co-exist peacefully.  A lot of good people at reduser.  That's what makes me upset - that these good people invested thousands of their hard-earned dollars into a camera system that is based on "myths" and now, are watching the value of their investment crash as the "myth" of red has been removed.

Please, Emanuel, if you do one thing in the next 24 hrs, read the ABC news article link and find out more about journalist's David Walsh's story.  And if you want, I am willing to contact David Walsh to find out more about Jannard.

I personally don't have the time or the desire to find out more, but if you want, I will do it for you and get a follow-up comment onto his character and get permission to post it on this forum.  If you can do it, great, one less thing for me to do! Perhaps that will change your attitude towards Mr. Jannard as an example of, as you wrote, "progress."

I've been used to appreciate your care on the effort put in your flags and dedication to your craft, I think you know it. BTW I hope one of these days to gather a chance for some collaboration together as hinted by some other user among us a while ago as virtuous documentary filmmaker you are : )

I don't see anything B&W. People are not perfect, obviously. But from angel to demon there's a huge gap in-between. The man I know he's an exceptional human being and very talented business man and ingenious developer, not a con artist. Sensitive and a decent guy. I speak by my own experience and from many others and someone's else stories I've heard as well. I obviously can't comment on that Lance Armstrong episode. But even that doping ethics, that doesn't break my heart either : )

 

Frankly, there are things which hurt my feelings much more serious such as refugees and migrants condition of nowadays, as for instance.

There are people suffering if not literally dying to simply dream with a new life in the rich West and what are we doing?

We elect crooks without a single respect for human life only to put them out of our sight. This is morals and ethics we should all concern about. This matters. Really. This has a direct influence on people's lives.

 

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

I may disagree with your exalted praise of Red and the shocking personal actions and stories about Jim.

But this film trailer you shared, is so hilarious and well written. I would love to see the full film. Is it online somewhere (VoD, youtube etc)?. 

I don't praise anyone without a solid background from my own experience and that coming from colleagues, co-workers and friends.

 

The film is not available right now from any VoD platform, but you can order the Blu-Ray or DVD for 1080p and SD versions, respectively.

You can drop a bell on my private messages box, I'll let you know where to buy. Thanks for your kind words and care (E : -)

[Ed_David]

25 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I've been used to appreciate your care on the effort put your flags and dedication to your craft, I think you know it. BTW I hope one of these days to gather a chance for some collaboration together as hinted by some other user among us a while ago as virtuous documentary filmmaker you are : )

I don't see anything B&W. People are not perfect, obviously. But from angel to demon there's a huge gap in-between. The man I know he's an exceptional human being and very talented business man and ingenious developer, not a con artist. Sensitive and a decent guy. I speak by my own experience and from many others and someone's else stories I've heard as well. I obviously can't comment on that Lance Armstrong episode. But even that doping ethics, that doesn't break my heart either : ) Frankly, there are things which hurt my feelings much more serious such as refugees and migrants condition of nowadays, as for instance.

There are people suffering if not literally dying to simply dream with a new life in the rich West and what are we doing?

We elect crooks without a single respect for human life only to put them out of our sight. This is morals and ethics we should all concern about. This matters. Really. This has a direct influence on people's lives.

 

Thanks for your response, Emanuel.

I have spent time as a cinemotography with a lot of interesting people.

I worked on a doc with a murderer of two people (he was an armed robber_ as we filmed him coming home from jail.  He was super nice, super sincere.  A really nice person. 

I worked with the CEO of a major corporation responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people due to his policy that goes against most ethical standards.  Again, really, really nice.  Very mellow.  Nothing weird or evil about him. No conflict from what I could tell.  We talked about personal matters that you could do with anyone.

I'm not equating Mr. Jannard with these men. But I do know lying under oath in a federal court is not something most people will do, who have normal forms of ethics.  This is punishable in jail by at least 8 years in a federal prison.  Nor is it normal for most people in a position of power to ask an underling to lie and risk this amount of prison time for their own profits.

The implications of Lance Armstrong's doping - if you can do yourself a favor to learn about it. You'll learn that it involved millions of dollars and more than just lying and cheating for money, he ruined lives in the process.

As you say, "but what about the migrants?"  There's always something worse. But it doesn't make it okay what Jannard did. Intimidating an employee into lying and risking a prison sentence is not something any of us should ever do in life.

It's highly illegal.  And again, he should not be celebrated, for that fact alone.  

What type of people should be celebrated?

How about Dr. Fossum who invented the CMOS sensor?  We wouldn't be where we are with CCD sensors.

How about the people at Kodak who invented digital cameras?

So many other figures with so much importance.  So many true innovators.  Why must we focus on Jim Jannard and Jarred Land and their Barnum-like antics?  Their shutting down and silencing of oppositional viewpoints.  Of publically shaming and DOXing and suing people who questioned them.  (Look into Jim's final post on reduser where he called out 2 prominent cinematography figures).  

It goes on and on.

Be well Emanuel.  I hope for yourself, as an ethical person, you can empathize with how this person should be viewed.

[Emanuel]

I understand Ed you may have access to some sensitive information which has triggered your alerts. People are not great all the time. I don't ignore that and the fact you've noticed it. You and many other people attentive to many injustices around the world. No idea, I can't testify ; )

The men I am aware, they are smart enough to self-criticism when due. I just don't give so much importance to such case because of my point of view on these two people. I am in touch with Jarred for a decade and a half now. He's a good man, this is something I really praise from a human being. Jim Jannard can look like a bit more distant -- that label of a billionaire doesn't help either : ) but at a certain point I wonder what is real, what is myth. Jarred's best friend can only be as friendly as him. Used to evaluate character of people from my five decades now and almost three since the end of my teens, a quarter of century in this industry.

I assisted the bashing of his persona to the limits of nonsense on cinematography forums only because he is R-I-C-H (c'mon!) and he resisted, always polite. I was there. I like him. Really. I'd be dishonest with myself if I'd act as Simon (aka Saint Peter) did : )

I don't see our class of people involved in this business as some ethically above the average. I never stop to remind me Giuseppe Tornatore when he before to come to this playground thought people here can only be good people much earlier to realize only the movies are able to show or tell the truth.

Comes to my mind now F for Fake by Orson Welles and out of curiosity made with Gary Graver aka Robert McCallum on many golden age hard core pieces.

Of course, it's a 2nd angle on the same subject. No doubts on that. You know as filmmakers, we always tend to believe there are multiple perspectives on the same dimension and different layers there in fact : -)

Let alone something so serious as reputation is.

 

Thanks for your care on your words and consideration about myself as individual -- that counts to me : ) I've tried to put RED to not turn the back to Andrew for the contributor but also the human being he is.

The same way I don't appreciate to see this brand to be attacked as I do read. They are necessary to this industry. I wish all the best to Jarred now as his friend and admirer of their work and efforts. I'd never arrive to my Blackmagic Pockets if not from their existence among us : -)

[Emanuel]

It is in my native Portuguese language (idiom where the article is written) but I guess it expresses exactly my point on what we've been discussing here too -- about the time we all live in as far as the new sacred trinity (what a supreme blasphemy! LOL : ) technology/business/progress concerns:

https://www.dn.pt/vida-e-futuro/ha-50-anos-enviou-o-primeiro-email-da-historia-agora-ve-um-lado-obscuro-na-internet-11456892.html

[IronFilm]

On 10/26/2019 at 11:58 PM, Emanuel said:

They only protect their property.

Except it isn't their "property", not from a moral standpoint (or from a reasonable common sense perspective). 

[Emanuel]

I understand and even concur on the fairness of such point. Our viewpoint and interest as users : ) Someone on these boards joked with the case of the vanilla ice cream by Nestlé.

Go figure if you're on the other side though... ; -)

 

Pretty honest here: I think we should all struggle for our interests and perspectives but don't call me to subscribe character's assassination.

Let's talk about ethics and morals? Very well. Along this thread some serious reputation attacks against some individual were produced based on supposed claims which evidences no one here had access if any.

Is he here to defend himself?

Any law student would be able to confirm this can't be accepted under any standard at any rate.

I just can't speak about something I am not able to. Silence is also to consent anyway. For both sides.

I realize some people have their scope on topic. No one is blaming anyone for that.

It is even informative and healthy but when certain parameters are under our control, it can actually testify how accurate and fair our standpoint is.

 

E : -)

[Ed_David]

Emmanuel,  Jim is an example of "progress"?   Your words.

See below.  Probably the best summary of how he runs his business.  The poor people who invested thousands of dollars into his "inventions wrapped in art."

As someone else wrote, "good riddance".