A Middle-Aged Fart Weighs In On the BMPCC

[maxotics]

So I've had the BMPCC and a cold for the past couple of days.  

 

https://vimeo.com/80026814

 

This camera may wake Canikon up to Andrew;s arguments. For more reasons than enthusiasts, young film-makers, or professional buying this camera for personal use.  BM may have shrewder plans.

 

Yes, for anyone who knows anything about video, or uses it professionally, the BMCC and BMPCC are good niche products.  Many executives at Cankon can argue, if the BMPCC makes it in the professional sphere, fine, no real biggie, small market.  If they gain any traction with the retail market, then it wouldn't take too much to add raw-type capabilities to our cameras (as I've found out, the latest two models and the EOS-M can shoot very good 720p raw).

 

History, however, always seems to repeat.  No matter how much money large corporations have, it's hard to beat really motivated and smart competitors who have got a lead on you.

 

The problem is Canikon is not actually moving forward, but one could argue, almost moving backwards.  I'm sure there must be executives at these companies who argue that their corporations have gone to hell in a hand basket.  How could some uppity Australians come out with such an innovative camera?  Because really, what video person wouldn't want or love this camera?  Forget what's coming out tomorrow.  Forget the 5D3.  This is more camera in your pocket than Lucas had to shoot "Attack of the Clones" only 11 years ago!  In your pocket.  Doesn't even have to be a big pocket!  

 

I'm not trying to pitch this camera.  Or say it's the best thing since sliced bread.  I am saying this camera has the potential to be truly disruptive in the retail marketplace.  It has certainly changed how I view consumer video.

 

I should go to bed, so let me shorten my points.

 

1. With additional software, consumer could get this video automatically adjusted to blow away the quality they get from their DSLRs--ALL OF THEM!  Forget DNGs.  If the public reaches that conclusion using this camera the name "Black Magic" will be synonymous with quality High Def video.  

 

2. There is NO CURRENT PUBLIC perception of what is the Bentley/Gucci/Mazarati/etc of true color video cameras.  If this camera claims that spot, just like the Palm Pilot, iPod, Blackberry, Nokia (all products from companies that were nobodies at the time), Canikon may catch up, but will not overtake.

 

3. No one in the current market wants to admit/recognize that their current video cameras doesn't measure up.  Same happened with American TVs, cars, etc.  The one day, the market has changed.  No one knew exactly when it happened.  You just woke up one day wanting a Toyota.

 

4. It would be smart for BM to let the early adopters work out the bugs with this camera and continue to build their distribution channels and name recognition.  

 

5. This camera could easily take photos.  I don't believe BM is preventing this for engineering or purist reasons.  If I was them, I wouldn't tip my hand.  

 

I would recommend this camera to any friend with money to spare.  This is not some difficult to use piece of equipment.  It's the post-processing that's difficult, and I can tell you, from my experience in software development, that is cheap to fix.  BM can create a plug-in for iMovie, or an app for Macs, with little expense (compared to camera making).  

 

Everyone looking at the shortcomings of this camera are way too jaded.  I look forward to using this camera during Thanksgiving.  The 50d made me want to give up H.264 and adopt RAW.  This camera makes it a reality.

[chrisso]

I love the camera, but I don't see it as a consumer product.

Everything about this camera is expensive, apart from the initial, price of the body.

Yes, with almost nothing extra you can make decent home movies, but the potential from this camera screams to be used more intelligently.

So far I've spent over $1000 on the body, and close to $1000 on everything else. And I'll probably be spending another $1000.

Cages, variable ND's, lights,  better lenses, a rig, a monopod, more batteries, more expensive sandisk Extreme Pro SD cards etc, etc….

Not being negative, I love this thing, but affordable and easy to use for average video consumers, I think not.

[StrangerSong]

Honestly Canon is still years ahead of Blackmagic anyway.  The C500's sensor is already in the C100, only the processors to deal with the 4k RAW are different.  If Blackmagic looked like it was going to truly revolutionize anything Canon would just release a version of these same processors (or whatever their next one down the pipeline is) with all the RAW high bitrate stuff enabled.  In a few years it'll be cheaper too.  Meanwhile Canon's colour science, how they deal with IR, egronomics, ect are all very much superior.  Canon's just reading the market, and their entire Cinema line has been super successful and from a business standpoint they're doing what the market wants without breaking the bank producing more than they want.  That's always been the key to their success.  Are they over priced?  Could they do better?  Yes.  But from a research standpoint they're ready for anything the market will demand, probably.

 

I'd say the phenomenon you're describing would probably apply more to something like GoPro, which has carved a niche in the market that Canon would probably have a hard time breaking into, due to all the tech that little company has come up with.  Blackmagic's doing a great thing though, hopefully they'll find their niche too, with their future cameras. But in a world where the F35 used to cost 250,000 and can be bought for 8,000 now, it's easy to assume that in 4 years the script will be flipped completely, again.  How the camera market looks after April will be very interesting.

[Andrew Reid]

Honestly Canon is still years ahead of Blackmagic anyway.  The C500's sensor is already in the C100, only the processors to deal with the 4k RAW are different.  If Blackmagic looked like it was going to truly revolutionize anything Canon would just release a version of these same processors (or whatever their next one down the pipeline is) with all the RAW high bitrate stuff enabled.  In a few years it'll be cheaper too.  Meanwhile Canon's colour science, how they deal with IR, egronomics, ect are all very much superior.  Canon's just reading the market, and their entire Cinema line has been super successful and from a business standpoint they're doing what the market wants without breaking the bank producing more than they want.  That's always been the key to their success.  Are they over priced?  Could they do better?  Yes.  But from a research standpoint they're ready for anything the market will demand, probably.

 

I'd say the phenomenon you're describing would probably apply more to something like GoPro, which has carved a niche in the market that Canon would probably have a hard time breaking into, due to all the tech that little company has come up with.  Blackmagic's doing a great thing though, hopefully they'll find their niche too, with their future cameras. But in a world where the F35 used to cost 250,000 and can be bought for 8,000 now, it's easy to assume that in 4 years the script will be flipped completely, again.  How the camera market looks after April will be very interesting.

 

I agree with you about Cinema EOS being a success story.

 

But it's very much a separate thing to Blackmagic and DSLRs.

 

Canon's consumer end of things is a mess. Not creative.

 

I have sitting side by side the Sony A7R and 5D Mark III... Honestly, the Canon just looks and feels like a thing of the past. Sad to say it but if it wasn't for Magic Lantern the 5D would have bit the bullet today. As a stills camera, just about the only thing it does that the A7R doesn't do as well is AF. On every single other metric the A7R outclasses it.

 

GoPro isn't really a niche thing... That is a massive market. Multi-billion dollar stuff. And indeed Canon are nowhere in it. Sony tried entering it but didn't really come up with the goods.

 

The story of the next few months is going to be a big one - the first proper 4K product releases and a lot of these are in our right on our street of interest at EOSHD, it will revitalise the DSLR video scene.

 

Let's just say Canon doesn't have an answer yet.

 

Their mirrorless is poor. Sold even poorer, until massive price reductions shifted some stock. They have no video orientated consumer DSLR style camera like Sony (RX10) or Panasonic. They are outclassed on the sensor side by Sony, who have 36MP and 14 stops dynamic range to 22MP maximum and 11 stops dynamic range from Canon, who used to lead on CMOS.

 

I'd love to be more positive about Canon but you can't deny the facts and the fact is they have stalled.

[andy lee]

Canon have just relesed a new camera aimed at the same market as GoPro

 

its is very good , we where discussing this as a trade show last week (BVE North) - I might start using this as a crash cam to use on cars

 

 

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/standard_display/minicam

 

 

interesting it does do 24p 1080   the go pro only does 30p 1080

and 15mm or 32mm lens - 32mm is useful as its not fisheye bendy lens that all skateboard videos use

No, this isn’t the 75MP beast of a camera that you’ve all been waiting for, but it is surely still something quite cool.  Canon is announcing a brand new VIXIA camcorder that they’re coining the Mini Compact Personal Camcorder. It is being aimed at bloggers and because of that, there is built in WiFi. The camcorder sports an 15mm f2.8 fisheye lens and features a closeup mode that gets your subject closer to you by using a smaller area of the sensor. The camcorder has a 2.7 inch capacitive touch screen along with a 12.8MP CMOS sensor, takes Micro SD cards, and the company is also seriously pimping its microphones for audio recording.

It shoots 1080p video at 24p or 30p, but you can also shoot at 720p at a lower file size.

The camcorder will retain for $299.99 in September. More images and tech specs are after the jump.

 

Tech Specs

F2.8 fisheye lens 15mm field of view comes to a 32.1mm

Close up mode

2.7 inch touch screen capacitive tilt and rotate

230K dot LCD

12.8MP CMOS sensor

Micro SD card

Built in Microphone

256KB/s recording

Built in wifi

Live steaming ability via your phone

Built in stand

Fast motion 2x or 4x speed

Bit rate 24MB 1080p 24p or 30p

At 4MB/s it can drop down to 720p video

1/2.3″ sensor

Interval recording for time lapse shooting

1 minute or 10 minutes 6 hours at one minute

160 grams or 5.6 oz empty

3inch by 1inch by 3.1 inches

$299.99 available in september

MPEG-4

White and black

 

[maxotics]

I love the camera, but I don't see it as a consumer product.

Everything about this camera is expensive, apart from the initial, price of the body.

 

Hi Chrisso, that's the beauty of business, no one ever "sees it as a consumer product" until it's too late.  IBM probably made the biggest blunder of all time with the PC.  I'm not saying this will be the case here, only that it isn't as improbable as it looks.  The GoPro is another great example.

 

What we have to keep in mind is the man or the woman on the street with a Canon or Nikon DSLR want the same things we want.  Inspiration, creativity, meaning, beauty... That's why hundreds of millions of those cameras are sold.  You'd need to pay $1,200 to get a BMPCC setup now, but I wager many people paid similar to that for their first DSLR.  (Anyway, prices will come down.).  

 

IF (and it's a big IF) the BMPCC eventually hits as a consumer camera, and Canon, doesn't catch up, it will be because the people at Canon no longer see these cameras the same way I believe all people see them--a way to pursue beauty.  The BMPCC was built by people who LOVE, LOVE, LOVE film.  Just like the Flip was built by people who really wanted video they could carry in their pocket.  

 

Keep in mind, Canon COULD have done a GoPro or a Flip.  They didn't.  

 

Again, this camera may not look like a consumer cam.  I see that.  But it can deliver an image that may inspire people to want to buy it.  Even if they can't use it.  People spend extra money on everything in life, if it gives them a feeling of higher worth.  

 

I bought the BMPCC for what it CAN do.  Whether I get there or not is not as important as feeling, today, that it is possible.  I believe this is the same for everyone.

 

And Andy, that new Canon camera is a case in point.  Why would anyone buy it over a GoPro, or even a Sony?  Too little, too late. You buy the camera that took the cool video your friend took.  

[andy lee]

Go Pro are the leaders for sure

I like the new Canon as it does 24p 1080 which is useful for me and the flip up screen is a plus

[nigelbb]

 

interesting it does do 24p 1080   the go pro only does 30p 1080

 

My HD Hero 2 does 24p (& 25p & 30p) 1080 so I am sure that the newer Hero 3 & 3+ models do as well.

[chrisso]

 

 

What we have to keep in mind is the man or the woman on the street with a Canon or Nikon DSLR want the same things we want.  Inspiration, creativity, meaning, beauty... That's why hundreds of millions of those cameras are sold.  You'd need to pay $1,200 to get a BMPCC setup now, but I wager many people paid similar to that for their first DSLR.  (Anyway, prices will come down.).  

 

Don't forget I own and use the camera.

The screen is pretty useless in daylight. Without quality ND's you are shooting at f16-f22 in most daylight.

It costs more than $1200 to make the camera usable for most applications.

As well as affordability, overall people want convenience and instant gratification.

I actually think most people shoot pix and video using smart phones these days.

Ultimate quality has never been a great selling point in consumerland.

I'm in the music industry, and we've been decimated by the popularity of very low quality mp3's.

We smugly thought higher quality sound would prevail, but no, most people want cheap, convenient, portable mp3's.

I can't see the pocket camera being anything more than an enthusiasts tool. It has too many inconvenient aspects, and requires time and effort to process the footage.

[maxotics]

HI Chrisso, Again, I'm not arguing the camera will become a consumer hit, only that it has the "potential" because, for the sake of argument, if there was a piece of software in the future that automatically graded the footage and put it on your TV, or computer, people would see a huge difference between it and what they currently get.  You could make the argument for almost ALL photographic and video equipment that "Without quality ____ and instant gratfication" it won't sell.  But DSLRs sell every day and are barely used within 5% of their capabilities.  I couldn't agree with you more, "Ultimate quality has never been a great selling point".  I think I've posted elsewhere on Betamax for example. Anyway, you already own the camera so I already pre-won this argument ;)  And I own, so for all your reasons, also lost it ;)

 

But let's talk about Mp3s!  You're talking about listening devices, which depend on an industry to produce content, and another to play it.  It isn't for "creative" use like a camera.  Like many people, I remember the hatred I felt for the music industry when CDs were $18.  Lots of forces at work there.

 

Anyway, for music recording, the Zoom recorder was a hit.  So is the whole MIDI industry.  And musical instruments.  What about the game Rock Band (or whatever it was called).  

 

Practical high dynamic range video is in its early stages here.  Don't count it out.  Don't count out high fidelity music either.  It WILL come back, if you ask me.  Even when I was young the quality moved around, LPs (good), 45s (crap), reel-to-reel (great), cassettes (bad), 8-track (laugh!), MD (great), CD (good), MP3 (Fucken' bullshit!), Next XXX (?)

 

Again, no hit product from left field ever looks like a winner when it first comes out.  Of course, there are new products every day, but do you really believe, for it's size, the BMPCC isn't just a little more different than just about any other video recorder since DV? or SD?

 

Again Betamax (great), VHS (shit), Hi8 (great), DV (eh), AVCHD HD (great), 14bit color?

[chrisso]

The feature people are going to like are Pro-Res and Raw, not so much a particular camera or company.

Once an affordable Sony or Panasonic camera offers pro-res 4-2-2 and raw (without hacking), I think people will dump their pocket cameras.

It's a finnickety camera to use, it has QC issues, and is expensive to kit out due to the standard features you get with Sony and Panasonic that BMD have left out.

[HurtinMinorKey]

Once an affordable Sony or Panasonic camera offers pro-res 4-2-2 and raw (without hacking),

 

So by the year 2020?

[maxotics]

The feature people are going to like are Pro-Res and Raw, not so much a particular camera or company.

Once an affordable Sony or Panasonic camera offers pro-res 4-2-2 and raw (without hacking), I think people will dump their pocket cameras.

It's a finnickety camera to use, it has QC issues, and is expensive to kit out due to the standard features you get with Sony and Panasonic that BMD have left out.

 

I can only go by what I've seen in the past 30 years.  I've seen this over and over again. Most of the employees at Canon have probably been there for years.  They're used to high salaries and being treated like royalty at trade shows, etc.  I bet Black Magic is young and most of their employees are more worried about making a winner, than putting their kids through college and parents in old age homes ;)  I know it sounds mundane and simplistic.  But again, what I've seen over the past 30 years.  

 

You may also underestimate what BM has accomplished.  For example, the cooling system for the sensor may have taken years (and is still in development).  No matter how powerful a company is, some things just take time to figure out.  If you were right, it wouldn't have taken the Android phone screens years to catch up to the iPhone glass (if they have even).  

 

Anyway, all this is good for your career Chrisso.  Take it from an old fart ;)  

[Damphousse]

I can only go by what I've seen in the past 30 years.

 

If you have been watching this space for 30 years then you know Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony etc would never risk the value of their brand on something like the BMPCC.  Canon was the first to market with a real consumer DSLR.  And they brought it in under $1,000 with lens.  It was a complete polished kit with working auto focus and the photography world went crazy.  That was a decade ago.  They are not going to put out a fiddley beta camera that ships in spirts even a year after it was announced for $1,000 with no lens.  They would get massacred in the press and have irreprable damage done to their brand.

 

There are certain things you simply don't see.  One of them is a no moire/aliasing APS-C or larger sensor with 4:2:2 10 bit or raw in a sub $4,000 camera that is polished and worthy of the name Canon, Nikon, etc.  Nobody makes anything like that.  What BlackMagic has done is nice but it is not something any major consumer electronics player can do with it's brand name.  Ask anyone in marketing and they will tell you no way.  Sales are down across Canon's stills camera business but I don't think they will make up for those missed sales by damaging their brand to put out a $1,000 camera for the raw/prores market.

 

The video of the executive from the Cinema division at Canon made a good point about throughput.  When the throughput is available I am sure you will see more of the major players jump into that market.  But right now with SD cards and CF I think we will continue to be limited in what we get.  Even BlackMagic went with SSD in it's higher end cameras.

[jcs]

MJPEG (ProRes, DNxHD) 10-bit 422 is plenty, along with a decent quality in-camera de-Bayer. If using a C100-C500 sensor- then no de-Bayer needed. Cards are plenty fast... They won't even provide 422 10-bit H.264. This level of quality is reserved for the pro cameras. Not likely to be available from Canon for consumer or prosumer cameras for some time.

 

RAW has its place, however RAW is huge time and space burner and a stop-gap until cameras get more powerful processors (or stop using Bayer pattern sensors).

[Damphousse]

MJPEG (ProRes, DNxHD) 10-bit 422 is plenty, along with a decent quality in-camera de-Bayer. If using a C100-C500 sensor- then no de-Bayer needed. Cards are plenty fast...

 

How many MB/S is Prores 4:2:2 10-bit?

[maxotics]

Just did some quick calcs on the ProRes that came out of the BMPCC and it's around 22 MB/S.  

 

When I shoot 1280x720 on the EOS-M, using 14bit RAW, it's around 36 MB/S.

 

On the 50D, 1080p is around 80 MB/S.  (Can't shoot continuous 1080p on the 50D.  I can around 72 MB/s; others say they have been able to do it with 32GB cards).  Of course, there is no compression, not even the crudest sort, on ML RAW.  

 

You still have to go out of your way to buy an SD or CF card that records over 40MB/S.  So even if Canon released a camera today they'd get tons of supports calls, my guess.  I'm not excusing their wimpiness.  Just saying there's a lot to what Damphousse is saying  ;)

[Axel]

I'm in the music industry, and we've been decimated by the popularity of very low quality mp3's.

We smugly thought higher quality sound would prevail, but no, most people want cheap, convenient, portable mp3's.

 

You are describing the delivery codecs. Even if raw was common in every smartphone (you'd have apps to apply a lut, log and look and then probably the original will be deleted automatically, like with the 'HDR' photos of the iPhone), people wouldn't store and watch it like that, but as mp4 (then perhaps H.265). This is the difference between - if this is the right term -'acquisition format' and delivery format. Keep in mind that even the DCP's codec, JPEG2000, uses compression, or otherwise the file sizes (they are often sent via satellite!) wouldn't be manageable. But compared to really uncompressed analog projections everybody, including experienced projectionists, prefer digital, compressed but 'visually lossless' images.

 

The feature people are going to like are Pro-Res and Raw, not so much a particular camera or company.

Once an affordable Sony or Panasonic camera offers pro-res 4-2-2 and raw (without hacking), I think people will dump their pocket cameras.

 

These cameras have raw already, under the hood. You are right, people don't want to be bothered with tooo much creative decisions, they prefer easy pre-defined looks. I think, once cards get faster, bigger and cheaper and once consumer NLEs like Magix, AP-Elements or FCP X (which I don't consider a low-end software, but in fact the majority of the clients are consumers, due to the low price) will deal with DNGs (or some more compressed raw) and make workflows more fluid, people will first dump common DSLR-videography and from there on. If not, again, the resolution lie wins and people fall for the 4k+ buzzwords!

 

I can't see the pocket camera being anything more than an enthusiasts tool. It has too many inconvenient aspects, and requires time and effort to process the footage.

 

Thank god. I like the idea of being an enthusiast whose strife for better video pays off in comparison to what anybody can have with a fully automatized little camera. 

 

Let's take the mp3 analogy. Even if I knew everybody was to listen to my song as an mp3 on an iPod with tiny $15 earphones, I like to record and mix in an uncompressed format - if affordable.

 

And there is another distorted perception: That compression is the devil. With decent earphones or decent monitors, mp3 easily beats consumer-level HiFi of vinyl discs. And pop music is also compressed and gives away dynamic range to sound more powerful on the said devices. Just as we will leave the hype of grading for HDR (let's see the full orchestra on our tiny, shitty 8-bit crap-o-vision monitors!) that dominates now and turn back to grading for expression. 

[chrisso]

I couldn't disagree with you more. You are mixing up two different forms of compression for a start.

mp3 doesn't beat anything for depth of tome, detail and general sound quality. They key to it's widespread adoption is  small size, convenience and portability. Most people are listening to music on bad sound systems (earbuds, iPhones, PC's), so an mp3 is adequate. Other than that, an mp3 is similar to the worst kind of baked in jpeg.

I'm not an audiophile, or an expert on video codecs, but I've been a professional musician since 1980, and been involved in the journey from vinyl, to CD through to mp3's.

[Bioskop.Inc]

I think maxotics has said it all - this camera for the price is just simply stunning!

RAW - unbelieveably spectacular.

ProRes (Film) - amazing.

ProRes (Video) - v.v.useful.

Sound - Good, but only if you plug an external device into it & then you have an acceptable backup if anything goes wrong.

 

This really isn't a pick it up off the shelf (expression, rather than a reality) & go shooting camera - i think the designation of it being a "Cinema" camera should have rang out loud & clear to any/everybody buying it.

I think the QC might have gotten better as mine has no problems what-so-ever, apart from 1 minor querk - a pinky grid pattern when panning away (left or right & only for a split second) from a strong light source in a high contrast situation. All indications/tests show that it is caused by lens flare from a vintage single-coated lens & can be eliminated by an ND filter or by stopping down the lens.

 

I would gladly pay (& did) the £700 for this camera, with the full knowledge that i would be saving thousands of pounds.

If its your first camera then you're going to have to spend extra money on stuff - as is always the case in this situation.

There is no equivilant on the market & probably won't be for some time.

 

The good thing at the moment is that people are being very open about any short comings - this was not the case with DSLRs when i bought mine!

But hey, i've now got a v.nice photography camera & an awesome video camera!