A Middle-Aged Fart Weighs In On the BMPCC

[Axel]

I couldn't disagree with you more. You are mixing up two different forms of compression for a start.

 

You don't disagree. What I say is, that the consumer end of distribution is and will remain small, portable and compressed to the limit, both in the audio world as in the video world. For music, uncompressed audio to work with was always affordable. CD and DVD-Audio didn't last, because the quality of mp3 was sufficient for the customers. Until recently, less compressed video was not affordable. Now it is, but that doesn't change the 8-bit 4:2:0 compression we finally watch the video in ourselves, let alone the standards of the average audience. We compress 12-bit to 8-bit, deliberately (and because nothing else makes sense, unless we produce DCPs) and imho that's comparable to audio compression in pop music. I am not an audiophile either, but I believe a recording of Beethovens 7th symphony will lose much more detail as mp3 than, say, a song by Pink. What looks like high dynamic range is really lowest possible dynamic range and making the triangle (the coin in the shadow) as loud as the trumpet (the grey rock in the sun).

[chrisso]

In general I agree with you. Audio compression is not the same as a compressed format like mp3 or Pro-Res though.
Hard limited audio compression really took hold before mp3's. It makes your song sound powerful and loud on the radio and mtv.
Back to the camera......
Yeah I haven't had a single issue with mine either. I'm really blown away by the raw. I'm enjoying it much more than the pro-res from the camera, although I'm happy with 422 once I've exported my raw to that.

[Axel]

In general I agree with you. Audio compression is not the same as a compressed format like mp3 or Pro-Res though.

 

I know. But it's comparable to reducing 12-bit to 8-bit through grading. And it's even more comparable to grading for Hollywood-blockbusters, where the intentional reduction of tonal values makes the remaining ones more 'powerful and loud':

[Damphousse]

Just did some quick calcs on the ProRes that came out of the BMPCC and it's around 22 MB/S.  

 

When I shoot 1280x720 on the EOS-M, using 14bit RAW, it's around 36 MB/S.

 

On the 50D, 1080p is around 80 MB/S.  (Can't shoot continuous 1080p on the 50D.  I can around 72 MB/s; others say they have been able to do it with 32GB cards).  Of course, there is no compression, not even the crudest sort, on ML RAW.  

 

You still have to go out of your way to buy an SD or CF card that records over 40MB/S.  So even if Canon released a camera today they'd get tons of supports calls, my guess.  I'm not excusing their wimpiness.  Just saying there's a lot to what Damphousse is saying  ;)

 

 

I don't know if it is too late but if you are using a Komputerbay card you should swap it out.  I think the Komputer Bay 64 GB card is the sweet spot.  Mine defintely hits 80 MB/S.  Of course I need to turn global draw off and use small hacks.  I also format and the card needs to warm up.

 

The 50D proves my point... and kind of undermines it.  Finessing raw out of it can be an issue for longer clips.  It's not the type of thing you can set up on a tripod and hit record and assume you can glance down 5 minutes later and it is still succesfully recording.  I use it for short clips no longer than 30 seconds.  But then you think Canon created this raw shooting beast half a decade ago!  Where is Moore's law?

 

I think one of the issues is the rise of the SD card.  I was shooting video with my t3i and a middle aged tourist started asking me about it.  During the conversation he mentioned he had an older camera without video function and it used old tech compact flash cards.  I had to explain to him compact flash cards on average had faster throughput than the newer SD cards.  I don't know if I convinced him.  But I think a lot of consumers would be befuddled by relatively expensive CF cards reappearing in their cameras.

[maxotics]

I don't know if it is too late but if you are using a Komputerbay card you should swap it out.  I think the Komputer Bay 64 GB card is the sweet spot.  Mine defintely hits 80 MB/S.  Of course I need to turn global draw off and use small hacks.  I also format and the card needs to warm up.

 

 

Hi. No, it's not too late.  Though I lent my 50D to someone who is teaching a friend how to use it and maybe that friend will buy it.  I have a Toshiba 1000x 16GB CF card.  My biggest problem with the 50D is not getting a proper frame size showing on the LV during crop-mode recording.  Do you have a trick for that?  I probably shouldn't sell it because it will be even more useful as the high-speed CF cards get cheaper.  

[mtheory]

Both BMCC and BMPC are hipster products, while 5D is a pro cinema workhorse with a bunch of theatrical features under its belt. BM4K will be BM's first real entry into the pro cinema market and a first true successor to 5D, so I will reserve the judgement till then. For now, 5D is untouchable in affordable pro category.

 

As for the consumer video market, - GoPro and iPhone already own it, so neither Canon or BM has much chance there anymore, no matter how many Powershots, Rebels, EOS M's they throw at it .

 

'Professional product at consumer prices' is the only real market left. That's why the next 7D will most likely be Canon's re-entry into that market. If not, BM cameras will be on every single 7D and 5D owner's upgrade list from now on.

[Damphousse]

Hi. No, it's not too late.  Though I lent my 50D to someone who is teaching a friend how to use it and maybe that friend will buy it.  I have a Toshiba 1000x 16GB CF card.  My biggest problem with the 50D is not getting a proper frame size showing on the LV during crop-mode recording.  Do you have a trick for that?  I probably shouldn't sell it because it will be even more useful as the high-speed CF cards get cheaper.  

 

No man sorry.  I never got that deep into the 50D.  I use it mostly in crop mode for tripod mounted stuff.  So I turn on the ML grayscale and line everything up and then turn of global draw.  Then I hit record.  But I don't move the camera during recording.  I use it in a very narrow fashion.  If it was like recording on a T3i I would do more dynamic stuff.  I just hate having to do a bunch of processing on a file only to discover I made a mistake while recording.  I know... pretty lame.

[maxotics]

Both BMCC and BMPC are hipster products

 

I wonder if Black Magic will see the first few frames and send someone to take it away from me :)  They worked so hard to build a popular camera and I'm stinking up the joint :)

 

https://vimeo.com/80162950

[Joya2islam]

On 11/23/2013 at 3:07 PM, Axel said:

 

You are describing the delivery codecs. Even if raw was common in every smartphone (you'd have apps to apply a lut, log and look and then probably the original will be deleted automatically, like with the 'HDR' photos of the iPhone), people wouldn't store and watch it like that, but as mp4 (then perhaps H.265). This is the difference between - if this is the right term -'acquisition format' and delivery format. Keep in mind that even the DCP's codec, JPEG2000, uses compression, or otherwise the file sizes (they are often sent via satellite!) wouldn't be manageable. But compared to really uncompressed analog projections everybody, including experienced projectionists, prefer digital, compressed but 'visually lossless' images.

 

 

These cameras have raw already, under the hood. You are right, people don't want to be bothered with tooo much creative decisions, they prefer easy pre-defined looks. I think, once cards get faster, bigger and cheaper and once consumer NLEs like Magix, AP-Elements or FCP X (which I don't consider a low-end software, but in fact the majority of the clients are consumers, due to the low price) will deal with DNGs (or some more compressed raw) and make workflows more fluid, people will first dump common DSLR-videography and from there on. If not, again, the resolution lie wins and people fall for the 4k+ buzzwords!

 

 

Thank god. I like the idea of being an enthusiast whose strife for better video pays off in comparison to what anybody can have with a fully automatized little camera. 

 

Let's take the mp3 analogy. Even if I knew everybody was to listen to my song as an mp3 on an iPod with tiny $15 earphones, I like to record and mix in an uncompressed format - if affordable.

 

And there is another distorted perception: That compression is the devil. With decent earphones or decent monitors, mp3 easily beats consumer-level HiFi of vinyl discs. And pop music is also compressed and gives away dynamic range to sound more powerful on the said devices. Just as we will leave the hype of grading for HDR (let's see the full orchestra on our tiny, shitty 8-bit crap-o-vision monitors!) that dominates now and turn back to grading for expression. 

https://soundrevealer.com/best-earphones-for-phone-calls/ Earphones prove beyond doubt that they are one of the best and the most convenient way to make your phone calls. Some of these earphones are wireless; hence it’s easier to make calls without limiting your flexibility.

 

[IronFilm]

Zombie thread from 2013!! 

Yeah, this is a spammer. 

  

On 11/22/2013 at 10:16 PM, StrangerSong said:

But in a world where the F35 used to cost 250,000 and can be bought for 8,000 now, it's easy to assume that in 4 years the script will be flipped completely, again.  How the camera market looks after April will be very interesting.

Curious how even after SEVEN YEARS (ok, more like 6 and a bit) the Sony F35 has only dropped a further 50% in value since then. 
 

  

On 11/23/2013 at 12:35 PM, HurtinMinorKey said:

So by the year 2020?

It is 2020 and we still don't have an affordable Sony or Panasonic offering internal ProRes or raw! 😞