Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 9, 2019 Administrators Share Posted November 9, 2019 Jarred Land posted today on REDUser about REDCODE (RED’s compressed RAW codec) withstaning the patent challenge by Apple. Although the court documents haven’t been updated in public from what I can see, it does appears Cupertino have failed where Sony previously failed. Now the stage is set for some negotiations, with RED being in pole position. Read the full article Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PabloB Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 The worst news. Very surprised it stood up. andrgl, Mako Sports and IronFilm 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyWithNoH Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Apple is likely interested in acquiring RED for their hydrogen and raw patents as well as help for their new Apple TV+ service. Attacking the legitimacy of the patents is probably just part of their negotiating. I believe this will all be revealed around the nearing Mac Pro launch... including talks of how easy it is to playback 8K on it in real time, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawshooter Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Big bummer. The RED patent also poses a threat to MagicLantern as MLV is compressed RAW video. sanveer and andrgl 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrgl Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 If Apple isn't interested in paying royalties, next step is fighting a lawsuit filed by Red. Hopefully this happens though likely won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crevice Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 It’s odd - I get fanboy will be fanboys - but why is everyone on Facebook and reduser saying this is such great news? I mean even if you own a red, why wouldn’t you want to see compressed RAW in other products? Competition is a good thing and it gives consumers more choice. It’s like me celebrating that my S1H won a case that will allow them to be the only camera that can record to an SD card. Why would I celebrate that? Emanuel, sanveer, tweak and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Sports Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Thats a damn shame, I was rooting for Apple. 15 minutes ago, crevice said: It’s odd - I get fanboy will be fanboys - but why is everyone on Facebook and reduser saying this is such great news? I mean even if you own a red, why wouldn’t you want to see compressed RAW in other products? Competition is a good thing and it gives consumers more choice. It’s like me celebrating that my S1H won a case that will allow them to be the only camera that can record to an SD card. Why would I celebrate that? They are happy as it wont devalue their expensive purchases. Video Hummus, Kisaha, EthanAlexander and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Well I’m not entirely surprised by this. Expect to see worse options for consumers and higher prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 This doesn't mean others can't be followed and have a different result, though. As of today, good news for RED and to those who have invested big money and praise theirs. Not for many by all means : ) Diversity will always prevail anyway, there will always be place for everyone. It is like censorship, never lasts indefinitely in a way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I don't know whether it is a sign of IP Institutions and Courts being fallible or corrupt in the United States. Sad, either ways. They're no better than China or even a banana republic. The ghost of squig 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caleb Genheimer Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I’m unclear on how this doesn’t encompass BlackMagic’s BMRAW.... glad that it (apparently) doesn’t? But yeah. BMRAW REALLY needs to start permeating/spreading, or we’re screwed. There has to be viable competition, or the tech will remain artificially out of reach. All things considered, IMO RED has some borderline douchey business practices/models across the board. I don’t doubt the validity of their innovation in this instance, nor the right for them to do business as they see fit (or for people to buy into the hype), but it’s 110% not for me. I’ve worked RED footage in post, and believe me, the reason they’ve defended this tech tooth and nail is that it’s the only thing they have going. Any pro body sensor from the last 5 years would match or even obliterate what I saw out of the RED in terms of noise, sensitivity, dynamic range and color fidelity. That’s not to say the RED was bad... it was good footage, especially in compressed RAW. But ARRI still whoops their (and everyone else’s) butt up and down the street, even in ProRes. I really hope Kinefinity is joined in making RED-adjacent cameras, because there is an ergonomic sensibility to the brick/brain design. Even ARRI has been pushed into making the “mini” variants for this reason. I’d love to se a Panny EVA-2 with the S1H sensor, in a brick body, with BMRAW licensed under the hood. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawshooter Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said: I’m unclear on how this doesn’t encompass BlackMagic’s BMRAW.... glad that it (apparently) doesn’t? Because BRAW is technically not RAW, but 12bit YUV with a log gamma curve. Emanuel, majoraxis, Kisaha and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ghost of squig Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 6 hours ago, crevice said: It’s odd - I get fanboy will be fanboys - but why is everyone on Facebook and reduser saying this is such great news? I mean even if you own a red, why wouldn’t you want to see compressed RAW in other products? Competition is a good thing and it gives consumers more choice. It’s like me celebrating that my S1H won a case that will allow them to be the only camera that can record to an SD card. Why would I celebrate that? Because you're in a cult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Steenhoff Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I'm happy to go with the sigma fp And compress later on the computer with slimraw. In a way it a good thing compressed raw is not coming so we have even beter quality with uncompressed. The only thing I wish for was lossless compressed raw, and I don't think thats covered by the red patent. I think the patent was about lossy compressed only. Emanuel and PabloB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawshooter Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Lars Steenhoff said: The only thing I wish for was lossless compressed raw, and I don't think thats covered by the red patent. I think the patent was about lossy compressed only. Unfortunately, not. The patent is about any form of compressed RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I am glad I went with Braw in the end. It seems like the best and most supported "independent" compressed raw format right now. This is a great opportunity for BlackMagic to gain more market share on raw formats. JeremyDulac, Emanuel, majoraxis and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, rawshooter said: Unfortunately, not. The patent is about any form of compressed RAW. Any decision is taken by men. On Apple's claim. As of now. That's it. Nothing more. Even Jarred's statement is very prudent and none of showing off other than their humble right to try their own property protection. Okay, Common Law system where US realm is based means legal precedents to follow up further at a certain point later on. But... Which doesn't literally mean that any other compressed RAW cannot be taken as valid to coexist along RED's patents. I guess it is only a matter of solid grounds and innovate approach on their contenders' filing if any. Without mention where exactly RED patents are covered? And under what authority jurisdiction to somehow stand same position/opinion for the subject matter on analogous claiming? That said, by some other words, IP management and their rights are far to be restricted exclusively to US authorities no matter what office the records have been made. As much as the whole planet doesn't belong to US jurisdiction or attained under their officers, institutions and Courts. Or perhaps Thomas Edison claim to charge royalties over any operator using his invention would have prevailed as effectively did not by any chance ; ) What I see here is the nonobservance of a lot of variables to explore by any other player with a good team of experts and lawyers team to handle the task. As simple as that. I'm sorry I can sound too plain on topic but all this has been addressed in a much strict standpoint. The issue and myriad of possibilities are beyond that. Made in China a few of moralists are always ready to jump on is the utmost example of that. The world and the way business works is much more complex than apparently seems. For the market's sake itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Steenhoff Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 And by they way. if recording to an external ssd via usb-c it is technically not recording internally right? so any camera manufacturer can implement compressed raw over usb-c Juank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Patents_Company#Creation Ironically, that's how Hollywood was born... Where Indie spirit rose up! : P Useless battle at a certain point or degree, sooner or later, to just one side IMHO (gang, don't be party poopers! LOL : -) IronFilm, greenscreen and sanveer 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawshooter Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Lars Steenhoff said: And by they way. if recording to an external ssd via usb-c it is technically not recording internally right? so any camera manufacturer can implement compressed raw over usb-c The patent covers any form of compressed RAW video recording, whether internal or external. This is why Atomos signed a licensing agreement with RED for its external recorders that record ProRes RAW: https://www.atomos.com/press-releases/atomos-and-red-are-pleased-to-announce-a-royalty-based-licence-agreement Btw., the patents are linked on RED's website and publicly readable: https://www.red.com/legal/patent sanveer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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