RED Komodo

[Patrick B.]

7 hours ago, Mike Mgee said:

So how many usable stops you think there going to be....12/13?

Good question, and I would think it’s higher than 12 considering how high Helium scored on DxO’s test and that Red’s are very close to Alexa:

https://www.dxomark.com/red-helium-8k-dxomark-sensor-score-108-a-new-all-time-high-score2/

But if Alexa is rated at 14 then maybe it is 13... hmmm

https://nofilmschool.com/2017/02/shootout-arri-alexa-mini-vs-red-epic-w-helium

 

[thebrothersthre3]

9 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Probably but what specs is the komodo missing that you want from a epic dragon?

I’d rather have the Komodo, but I’d the dragon is cheaper I’d get that 

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, Patrick B. said:

Good question, and I would think it’s higher than 12 considering how high Helium scored on DxO’s test and that Red’s are very close to Alexa:

https://www.dxomark.com/red-helium-8k-dxomark-sensor-score-108-a-new-all-time-high-score2/

But if Alexa is rated at 14 then maybe it is 13... hmmm

https://nofilmschool.com/2017/02/shootout-arri-alexa-mini-vs-red-epic-w-helium

 

Very interesting.

I suspected that RED cheats with their figures in many different ways. The highlight recovery on the RED was pretty bad, compared to the Alexa. The RED cameras also have strange flaring, maybe from poor coating applied to their sensors (along with the AA Filter). In a way it appeared to spread out the dynamic range wider, though only in appearance. The actual usable dynamic range may be much lower. I've seen such flaring from lenses which have poor or no coating (like the Mitakon 25mm f/0.95).

In the 3 and 4 stops of overexposure, the RED made the skin look like plastic, from one of the very low quality cameras from 10 years back, with low bitrate and very low dynamic range. 

If the Alexa is 14+ stops the RED is probably 12, at best. Maybe lower, if one pushes it in post. Also the % of the grade was lower on the RED. The colours appeared to be more muted on the RED, and that's why the difference didn't appear nearly as much as it actually was. 

[androidlad]

8 hours ago, sanveer said:

This dynamic range chart seems curious.

Usually the industry standard Xyla charts are available in 15, 21 and 26 steps. But this one seems to be somewhere in between 15 and 21 steps. Maybe RED invented their own chart? 

RED tests their cameras using Xyla 21.

 

2 hours ago, Patrick B. said:

Good question, and I would think it’s higher than 12 considering how high Helium scored on DxO’s test and that Red’s are very close to Alexa:

https://www.dxomark.com/red-helium-8k-dxomark-sensor-score-108-a-new-all-time-high-score2/

But if Alexa is rated at 14 then maybe it is 13... hmmm

https://nofilmschool.com/2017/02/shootout-arri-alexa-mini-vs-red-epic-w-helium

 

RED Helium 8K S35 scored 14.12EV in DxO measurements, most likely 14bit ADC and some NR, so total DR may be a match to Alexa's 14, but Alexa distributes way more DR in the highlights, while RED (and Sony) tend to have cleaner shadows with more monochromatic noise pattern.

[sanveer]

2 minutes ago, androidlad said:

RED Helium 8K S35 scored 14.12EV in DxO measurements, most likely 14bit ADC and some NR, so total DR may be a match to Alexa's 14, but Alexa distributes way more DR in the highlights, while RED (and Sony) tend to have cleaner shadows with more monochromatic noise pattern.

Would you know what Signal to Noise Ratio, DXO records its tests at?

 

[Mike Mgee]

One user tested via the same method that Cinema5D does, and gave the Monstro a score of 13.4. Interestingly enough the Alexa got a similar result, but as we all know its the quality of the pixels that matter. Anyway, Monstro at 13.4...Komodo at what...13?  S1H has a result of 12.7 so this will be interesting. I am assure red will be able to squeeze out more due to Redcode and their patents.

[independent]

Really, at this point they're all fairly similar and pretty good. 

[Patrick B.]

4 hours ago, androidlad said:

RED Helium 8K S35 scored 14.12EV in DxO measurements, most likely 14bit ADC and some NR, so total DR may be a match to Alexa's 14, but Alexa distributes way more DR in the highlights, while RED (and Sony) tend to have cleaner shadows with more monochromatic noise pattern.

That article I linked seems to bear that out as well as the Red Monstro did look cleaner in the shadows despite having less highlight range.  Seems like the new C300 mark iii is the same way with its DGO.

3 hours ago, Mike Mgee said:

One user tested via the same method that Cinema5D does, and gave the Monstro a score of 13.4. Interestingly enough the Alexa got a similar result, but as we all know its the quality of the pixels that matter. Anyway, Monstro at 13.4...Komodo at what...13?  S1H has a result of 12.7 so this will be interesting. I am assure red will be able to squeeze out more due to Redcode and their patents.

That’s very interesting.. I always wondered how they’d rate using that same test spec.  Surprised to see it rate higher than the Alexa!  I guess in my mind I’ve felt like Alexa is a world apart from most cameras, but I suppose that isn’t really the case any more as the gap has narrowed considerably with the latest generation of cameras.

Another thing with Red is their Redcode raw is always 16-bit I believe (as opposed to most camera’s 12-bit raw), so I wonder if that allows you to dig a little deeper into the shadows.  In the audio world there is enough of a difference in the noise floor between 16-bit and 24-bit that it helps me to get cleaner recordings when I have a very quiet source.  I guess that same principle must carry over in the digital video to some degree: very quiet source = very low exposure.

[thebrothersthre3]

The RED helium does seem to be on par with the Alexa from tests I've seen. Like it has been said more in the shadows less in the highlights. 

8 hours ago, Patrick B. said:

Another thing with Red is their Redcode raw is always 16-bit I believe (as opposed to most camera’s 12-bit raw), so I wonder if that allows you to dig a little deeper into the shadows.  In the audio world there is enough of a difference in the noise floor between 16-bit and 24-bit that it helps me to get cleaner recordings when I have a very quiet source.  I guess that same principle must carry over in the digital video to some degree: very quiet source = very low exposure.

I've been unclear on this. The RED raw is 16 bit linear. While the Alexa is taking the 16 bit color information and mapping it into 12 bit 444 log or Arri Raw Log. When you open it up in resolve it maps it as 16 bit linear. From what I understand 12 bit log is equal to 16 bit linear. 

The Blackmagic URSA or actually all of the BM cameras with a Fairchild sensor do the same thing(other than the Pocket 4k/6k which have a sony sensor). 

[Patrick B.]

9 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I've been unclear on this. The RED raw is 16 bit linear. While the Alexa is taking the 16 bit color information and mapping it into 12 bit 444 log or Arri Raw Log. When you open it up in resolve it maps it as 16 bit linear. From what I understand 12 bit log is equal to 16 bit linear. 

The Blackmagic URSA or actually all of the BM cameras with a Fairchild sensor do the same thing(other than the Pocket 4k/6k which have a sony sensor). 

Ah ok right.  I had heard Alexa’s was a log raw and also the Ursa.  So I guess it’s Pockets, Canons, lower end Sonys, and ProRes RAW that are 12-bit linear.  I was surprised to hear the FX9 will shoot 16-bit, but I guess you need that bulky add-on module?

But the Komodo won’t do internal ProRes will it?  So it’s raw or nothing I guess.  I kind of like how the Pockets will let you shoot ProRes and bake in a LUT if you want avoid grading.

[thebrothersthre3]

5 hours ago, Patrick B. said:

Ah ok right.  I had heard Alexa’s was a log raw and also the Ursa.  So I guess it’s Pockets, Canons, lower end Sonys, and ProRes RAW that are 12-bit linear.  I was surprised to hear the FX9 will shoot 16-bit, but I guess you need that bulky add-on module?

But the Komodo won’t do internal ProRes will it?  So it’s raw or nothing I guess.  I kind of like how the Pockets will let you shoot ProRes and bake in a LUT if you want avoid grading.

The nice thing about redcode is all the different compression rates you can choose. That said I am sure Prores is easier on most CPUs. Plus shooting in HD or anything other than full res crops the sensor. 

[Patrick B.]

4 hours ago, Elagabalus said:

ProRes is in there.

great news. hoping they add in ability to bake in custom LUTs for times you want to deliver straight from camera. this camera gets more and more appealing to me. 

[ntblowz]

22s boot up time, definitely improvement over red but not as fast as other cam.

 

wonder what is the compression ratio on HQ & MQ?

[Snowbro]

Footage: Komodo at it's lowest compression vs Helium, no colorgrading. I haven't seen any Komodo footage I really like yet, would need the R3D's to see. So far not dying for it which is a disappointment. It doesn't look all that "cinematic" vs full blown cinema cameras. When the skate footage was posted, many people said it just looked like Sony mirrorless footage. Unaltered, the highlight roll off looks way behind the helium, it also from these clips looks way more magenta out of the box vs normal reds or an Alexa (dont see many cinema cameras heavy on magenta). 

 

[androidlad]

Strange that the comparison was shot with "DCI-P3" color and gamma 2.6, both the DCI white point and the P3 gamut are not going to look correct on a BT.709/sRGB monitor people watch YouTube on.

[zerocool22]

13 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Footage: Komodo at it's lowest compression vs Helium, no colorgrading. I haven't seen any Komodo footage I really like yet, would need the R3D's to see. So far not dying for it which is a disappointment. It doesn't look all that "cinematic" vs full blown cinema cameras. When the skate footage was posted, many people said it just looked like Sony mirrorless footage. Unaltered, the highlight roll off looks way behind the helium, it also from these clips looks way more magenta out of the box vs normal reds or an Alexa (dont see many cinema cameras heavy on magenta). 

 

Looks like the colour science of the komodo and the helium is nothing alike. Its advertised as their small gymbal/glidecam/slider camera, but whats the point if the colour is so different. I could use whatever camera, no need to pay for RED prices in this case. (A blackmagic pocket will do)

[Dave Maze]

I'm so stoked to see these hit the wild! I wanna get one asap! Gotta come up with $7k tho

 

[kye]

17 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Looks like the colour science of the komodo and the helium is nothing alike. Its advertised as their small gymbal/glidecam/slider camera, but whats the point if the colour is so different. I could use whatever camera, no need to pay for RED prices in this case. (A blackmagic pocket will do)

Do RED provide good profiles for ACES and RCM or conversion LUTs?  If so, maybe they can be matched in post easily?  

Things like easy and accurate colour matching is one of the things you pay for when buying an established brand name, and is worth money when shooting with multiple models from one manufacturer, so I'd anticipate that they'd be onto it.

[Geoff CB]

2 minutes ago, Elagabalus said:

More footage. Nothing special so far.

Yeah that looks really meh. Don't understand why Jim doesn't hand one of these units to someone who knows what they are doing and create interesting visuals. 

[Snowbro]

I don't think anyone has seen any Komodo footage that looks remotely impressive, which is too bad. Everyone has been saying it just looks like Sony mirrorless footage lol. Next to the helium in Phillip Grossmans footage, you can see how un-cinematic it looks. It doesnt have that smooth flat look (especially in highlights) that the other REDs have. Color science is meh too. I know some of this can be changed in something like Resolve, but come on, they have been working on this camera forever and I think Jared said they have the color science/image really close to where they want it now.