Recommendations?

[Bioskop.Inc]

If you get a good 16D then that's a really good place to start, but the Elmoscope I is the same rebranded & they are normally cheaper - not the smallest, but none are really once rigged up.

I wouldn't worry too much about single focus, as they only really make focusing a little quicker & once you get used to dual focus you can hit the sweet spot very quickly with practice. The whole rack focus thing is a little bit of a red herring, as you don't need to be able to for the majority of things you shoot. If it's narrative you are doing, then a simple Shot-Reverse-Shot is such a common sequence when filming dialogue - so many different options & racking isn't the most common. I have an Iscorama & I very rarely rack focus - if I do, I always shoot another way so I have more options.

About going wide or using wide lenses with anamorphic attachments - the wider the taking lens the more distortion you'll get. Longer taking lenses really improve the quality of the anamorphic attachment. And as far as sharpness goes, most films are shot around F4 - 5.6 - shooting wide open is such a skill to be learnt & so easy to mess a shot up that it takes more planning.

You mentioned the S8, but it's a fixed focus lens so you'll need diopters & will have to move the whole rig forwards/backwards to get focus. The Isco Widescreen 2000 is the same but slightly bigger. Both are really sharp, but need a lot of practice & are ultimately too limiting.

Oh, with a x2 on a FF you could always use a slightly wider lens & crop in post to cut out the vignette - I crop all the time with x2 lenses, even x1.5.

My advice would be to get a 16D / Elmoscope 1 or 16H - they're cheap, good flares & have a large rear element. 

[mercer]

10 hours ago, heart0less said:

The smaller the front glass element in your taking lens, the better. 

Samyang 85 features 72 mm filter thread, so the glass itself could be ~ 60 mm, whereas most anamorphic adapters have ~ 40 mm rear elements. 

Most likely, the additional stop of light Samyang gives will be lost in the process, because you'll reduce the area through which light enters. 

Not to mention it may introduce vignetting. 

 

That's why people rarely use Sigma Art primes. In theory they would be a great choice, but their front elements are even bigger than Samyangs'. 

That makes sense, I just noticed a few people using it on a couple videos. 

 

3 hours ago, Julien416 said:

I have several front housings with Cinelux, Kowa 16h, Hypergonar and Dyaliscope 16
And four taking lenses housings : Jupiter 9, Helios, Contax 50 and 85.
and a rectilux to focus them.

I just switch back and forth between those, creating different looks, from very clean to vintage fest depending on my mood or what I am planning to shoot. I used the Hypergonar / Helios combination on a TV series last year for close ups that I matched with Panavision glasses, worked pretty well but I felt stuck with the vintage look (figured out later that my Helios was a lemon). That's why I went for the "choose your look" route since then with different options.

I know. I am sick.

What camera do you use? That's pretty cool that you can intercut the Hypergonar with Panavision lenses. I think they used a Panavision 32mm in Jaws.

[Julien416]

1 hour ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

And as far as sharpness goes, most films are shot around F4 - 5.6

Well I wouldn't be so sure about that. In the film days, it was the case, but in 5 or 6 years of anamorphic shootings, commercials or narrative, we are more than often around 2.8, 2.8 and a half. We go up to 5.6/8 only when shooting large establishing shots outside. 

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

What camera do you use? That's pretty cool that you can intercut the Hypergonar with Panavision lenses. I think they used a Panavision 32mm in Jaws.

On the show we shot with 2 Alexa mini. For the inserts and establishing I used my GH5s quite a lot. Dop wasn't that enthusiastic at the beginning, but he loved the Hypergonar and was satisfied enough with the GH5s images in the grading room.

As for Jaws, I think they actually used a panavision C series : 35 / 50 / 75 / 100. Formidable lenses. The bests I've ever used obviously.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

If you get a good 16D then that's a really good place to start, but the Elmoscope I is the same rebranded & they are normally cheaper - not the smallest, but none are really once rigged up.

Do you know how the 16S compares to the 16D? They seem similar but the 16S are a little cheaper. I guess the Bell & Howell is the jewel of the Kowa lineup?

Regarding focus... I'd rather have single focus but to start I may have to experiment with double focus until I completely build out a rig. I don't want to spend TOO much to start out in case I just don't like it (I'm sure I'll get addicted to it, though) so I'll probably hold off on a focusing unit until I'm sure. And then I may just buy one of those Rapido Cinelux kits that come with the lens and everything else and I'll swap out the focuser on the Kowa.

Are there any other options I'm not aware of now that could be a decent option? I saw a couple Meopta 2x listed on eBay but I assume they're not that great. But I do have a Meopta 20mm c-mount that is actually an excellent little lens. 

I hadn't thought of cropping. I'm still trying to work out what kind of resolution and ratio I'll be able to get if I shoot 4:3 and want to end with a 2:39 image... so I've got a lot of research to do. 

39 minutes ago, Julien416 said:

Well I wouldn't be so sure about that. In the film days, it was the case, but in 5 or 6 years of anamorphic shootings, commercials or narrative, we are more than often around 2.8, 2.8 and a half. We go up to 5.6/8 only when shooting large establishing shots outside. 

On the show we shot with 2 Alexa mini. For the inserts and establishing I used my GH5s quite a lot. Dop wasn't that enthusiastic at the beginning, but he loved the Hypergonar and was satisfied enough with the GH5s images in the grading room.

As for Jaws, I think they actually used a panavision C series : 35 / 50 / 75 / 100. Formidable lenses. The bests I've ever used obviously.

That's pretty cool that the GH5s footage matched with the Mini... I'd imagine close ups are a lot easier to match, though.

I read somewhere they primarily used a Panavision 32mm... but with a little digging, it seems you're right. I can't even imagine shooting with those Panavisions. I get excited when I shoot with my EF modified Canon FD 50mm 1.2 L. Haha, I probably wouldn't even know what to do with the Panavision. 

[Julien416]

 

13 minutes ago, mercer said:

Do you know how the 16S compares to the 16D? They seem similar but the 16S are a little cheaper. I guess the Bell & Howell is the jewel of the Kowa lineup?

You can't go wrong with either Kowa 16, S and D are essentially the same.

The Bell and Howell is indeed the most expensive of all, yet, it's exactly the same lens than the 16h, the 8Z and the elmoscope 2. Same Glass, same flares, some older 8z and 16h have purple coatings that will make them flare like the 16s and the D. Otherwise the B&H and its siblings all have yellow coatings. they cover the largest field of view and look really great.
 

16 minutes ago, mercer said:

I can't even imagine shooting with those Panavisions. I get excited when I shoot with my EF modified Canon FD 50mm 1.2 L. Haha, I probably wouldn't even know what to do with the Panavision. 

You would learn really fast. They aren't that complicated

[ken]

16H and D, the difference is only view angle.  the front and rear glasses size are almost same.  I never own S.  But looks it is close to D.  might be a little bit wider.

[Bioskop.Inc]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Do you know how the 16S compares to the 16D? They seem similar but the 16S are a little cheaper. I guess the Bell & Howell is the jewel of the Kowa lineup?

Regarding focus... I'd rather have single focus but to start I may have to experiment with double focus until I completely build out a rig. I don't want to spend TOO much to start out in case I just don't like it (I'm sure I'll get addicted to it, though) so I'll probably hold off on a focusing unit until I'm sure. And then I may just buy one of those Rapido Cinelux kits that come with the lens and everything else and I'll swap out the focuser on the Kowa.

Are there any other options I'm not aware of now that could be a decent option? I saw a couple Meopta 2x listed on eBay but I assume they're not that great. But I do have a Meopta 20mm c-mount that is actually an excellent little lens. 

I hadn't thought of cropping. I'm still trying to work out what kind of resolution and ratio I'll be able to get if I shoot 4:3 and want to end with a 2:39 image... so I've got a lot of research to do. 

 

Do not touch the Kowa Prominar 16s (I think that's what it's called, it has a narrow protruding rear element which is silver/metal) - it's not suitable at all, as its for super16 & vignettes like crazy. I mention this as some sellers try to pull fast ones with people mistaking it with it's bigger namesake.

Seen lots of Elmoscope I lenses for cheap - same as 16D, but slightly different body & normally has the nice blue flares! Get a good copy & it's hard to beat.

And yes start with something not too expensive first - I started with a 16D and was very happy. I then upgraded to the Kowa B&H & then it just got a little silly from there on!

The list to end all lists:

http://super8wiki.com/index.php/Anamorphic_Lenses#2x_Anamorphic_attachments

[heart0less]

And another one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13WruS37PBu9MH3RI-AsNClNsaLoS49IvRlLKx0uVuD4/edit#gid=0

[Julien416]

14 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Do not touch the Kowa Prominar 16s (I think that's what it's called, it has a narrow protruding rear element which is silver/metal) - it's not suitable at all, as its for super16 & vignettes like crazy. I mention this as some sellers try to pull fast ones with people mistaking it with it's bigger namesake.

I think there is a mistake right here. According to my knowledge (an having a 16-S), it's almost exactly the same lens as the 16-D. The listing you linked even says they have the same rear diameter (43mm), as for the front diameter, they are the also the same as HTN front adapters to couple it with rectilux were compatible between 16-S and 16-D (I also have one). The second listing from @heart0less even states they share the same weight at 290 grams. 

To sum it up : Kowa 16S and Kowa 16D are almost the same exact lens.

 

[Tito Ferradans]

18 hours ago, heart0less said:

And another one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13WruS37PBu9MH3RI-AsNClNsaLoS49IvRlLKx0uVuD4/edit#gid=0

I'm actually working to make this a lot more accessible and easy to navigate! ?

 

[mercer]

On 11/27/2019 at 12:14 PM, Julien416 said:

The Bell and Howell is indeed the most expensive of all, yet, it's exactly the same lens than the 16h, the 8Z and the elmoscope 2. Same Glass, same flares, some older 8z and 16h have purple coatings that will make them flare like the 16s and the D. Otherwise the B&H and its siblings all have yellow coatings. they cover the largest field of view and look really great.

Great information, thanks again. I must admit some version of the Bell and Howell is more appealing due to its smaller size and larger FOV. I just need to decide if it's a smarter move to wait and save for a B&H or jump in with a 16-D to get my feet wet.

Anyway, thanks again for your help. 

[mercer]

22 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Seen lots of Elmoscope I lenses for cheap - same as 16D, but slightly different body & normally has the nice blue flares! Get a good copy & it's hard to beat.

I may do this. That way if I come across a B&H at least they'll have different color flares if I decide to keep both.

What's a good price for...

Elmoscope l, 16-D, B&H, etc...?

On 11/27/2019 at 1:05 PM, ken said:

16H and D, the difference is only view angle.  the front and rear glasses size are almost same.  I never own S.  But looks it is close to D.  might be a little bit wider.

It seems the S and plain 16 are the cheapest, then the D, H, then the B&H is the most expensive?

22 hours ago, heart0less said:

And another one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13WruS37PBu9MH3RI-AsNClNsaLoS49IvRlLKx0uVuD4/edit#gid=0

Thanks, this doc is great. 

[heart0less]

 

58 minutes ago, mercer said:

It seems the S and plain 16 are the cheapest, then the D, H, then the B&H is the most expensive?

Kowa 16-H , Kowa B&H, Elmo II and Kowa 8-Z are all the same lens  - just a different branding.

 

16-H and 8-Z tend to cost just a tiny bit less than Elmo II, which is slightly cheaper than B&H.

 

58 minutes ago, mercer said:

What's a good price for...

Elmoscope l, 16-D

I'd say 250 $ - 300 $ for a copy in very good condition. 
Though it may take you some time to get a deal like this.

Kowa B&H usually runs for about 900 - 1000 $ nowadays. Every year it becomes more and more expensive..

16-H → 800 - 900 $.

 

Remember that 16-D goes under many names: Sankor, Singer, Kowa, etc.

 

I really recommend joining Anamorphic Shooters group on Facebook so that you can see all the marketplace posts. 

[Bioskop.Inc]

9 hours ago, Julien416 said:

I think there is a mistake right here. According to my knowledge (an having a 16-S), it's almost exactly the same lens as the 16-D. The listing you linked even says they have the same rear diameter (43mm), as for the front diameter, they are the also the same as HTN front adapters to couple it with rectilux were compatible between 16-S and 16-D (I also have one). The second listing from @heart0less even states they share the same weight at 290 grams. 

To sum it up : Kowa 16S and Kowa 16D are almost the same exact lens.

 

Did say that i wasn't sure of the name of the lens, but I do know that it was a Kowa Prominar - I do think there are a few different types of Prominar, because the one my friend bought had a lot smaller rear element than my Sankor 16D. Anyways, I was always talking about the Sankor/Singer16D (even the 16C or F), never the Kowa. Kowa B&H no question - the others not so much, apart from the In-Flight Kowa, which is stunning, but not as good as a Bolex!

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I may do this. That way if I come across a B&H at least they'll have different color flares if I decide to keep both.

What's a good price for...

Elmoscope l, 16-D, B&H, etc...?

 

Elmoscope I or Sankor/Singer 16D (even consider the 16C or 16F) go for about £250-300 (they've only really risen by about £100 in the last 10yrs, which is strange as all of them can be on a par with the Kowa B&H for image quality, if in good condition) - there was a glut of Elmoscopes in Japan a while back for cheaper & I nearly pulled the trigger just for the blue flares (not all of them have blue, so do some research).

I'm pretty out of touch as far as other things are concerned - I bought my B&H for under £300 about 10yrs ago & they can go for £900 nowadays. Personally, the Bolex is the king of dual focus & the Kowa B&H is worth half, if not more than half.

The problem at the moment is that there are far fewer lenses about, so lots of inflated prices - be patient & you can get a good deal.

 

[leslie]

Honestly i have only seen the prices of anamorphics go up over the last 8 months of so, not sure if thats the conversion rate of the aussie dollar or prices generally. Type 1 elmoscopes seem to be a third of the price of type 2. I paid $300 aus for the type 1. Type 2 have been $1200 or so  and i haven't seen any cheaper i probably would have bought 1 even if i had to rob a bank to pay for it  ?

 

[Andrew Clunie]

Yep, all the info you need is in this thread.

 

for your first scope, just buy anything. Quite a number of years back I picked up a sun 2x for £30 and shot some decent stuff with it. I got a rectilux and eventually sold it for a modded pre 36, which is nice, sharp, and compact.
 

2x stretch is a beautiful image.. just beware throwing away resolution when framing for 2.39 on a 16:9 sensor. If shooting 4K and export 1080, it really isn’t a problem. But you mentioned 5d raw which does anamorphic.. you will get lovely results with a 2x. You can go as wide as 58mm FF when cropping to 2.39.

So my suggestions are just keep your eyes peeled and get a cheap 2x off eBay.. sankor 16d etc, all those are great to start off. Then purchase a variable diopter when ready. 

 

 

[mercer]

20 hours ago, heart0less said:

I'd say 250 $ - 300 $ for a copy in very good condition. 
Though it may take you some time to get a deal like this.

Thanks, I am seeing a couple 16-S at that price with the D a little higher.

There's a guy from Indonesia that has a few different scopes for sale on eBay. He has a NOS Elmoscope I, but it looks different than other version I models I've seen? Or so could be getting some scopes confused... a lot of info to digest the past couple days.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F392474934664

20 hours ago, heart0less said:

Remember that 16-D goes under many names: Sankor, Singer, Kowa, etc.

 

I thought I read somewhere that Sankor/Singer 16-D is a different lens than the Kowa 16-D... even though logic would dictate otherwise. Either way, I assume they all perform in a similar way.

19 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Elmoscope I or Sankor/Singer 16D (even consider the 16C or 16F)

I tend to like smaller set ups and it looks like the Kowa A, C and F are shorter than the 16-D and S?

12 hours ago, Andrew Clunie said:

Yep, all the info you need is in this thread

You guys have been great, I really appreciate your insight. It can be a little daunting to wrap my head around.

13 hours ago, Andrew Clunie said:

for your first scope, just buy anything. Quite a number of years back I picked up a sun 2x for £30 and shot some decent stuff with it. I got a rectilux and eventually sold it for a modded pre 36, which is nice, sharp, and compact.

Small world... I happened upon one of your older Sun/t2i videos while looking at scope videos on Vimeo. It looked great... sharp!

13 hours ago, Andrew Clunie said:

But you mentioned 5d raw which does anamorphic.. you will get lovely results with a 2x. You can go as wide as 58mm FF when cropping to 2.39

Cool. I'm going to experiment with a bunch of different taking lenses to see how wide I can go. I'm also hoping I can use the "new" experimental build to get a little more resolution out of my 5D3.

What camera do you use now for anamorphic?

13 hours ago, Andrew Clunie said:

So my suggestions are just keep your eyes peeled and get a cheap 2x off eBay.. sankor 16d etc, all those are great to start off. Then purchase a variable diopter when ready. 

It seems like that's the smart play. I made a lowball offer on a Kowa 16-S last night that didn't work out. 

[ken]

Hi, I can tell you this one is exactly renamed 16D.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sankor-Anamorphic-35-J-Projection-Lens/223770656675

[Timotheus]

Hey @mercer, did you mention your budget already? You can get started with a a single focus combo for around 500-600 dollar... Find a nice 200-300 dollar scope (16c, 16d variants etc.) and add a SLR Magic Rangefinder for 279, that is a great deal you have in the US. Sure, the RF has it's quirks and caveats, but you can get a taste of single focus freedom for an affordable price.

If your budget is a bit higher go straight for the FVD16, which is a good investment no matter what, as it performs well, has a non-rotating front and neutral coatings.

Then, when you have a  scope and single focus lens, the quest for stable rigging begins haha...Pooli might help you out there, but take one step at a time.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Timotheus said:

Hey @mercer, did you mention your budget already? You can get started with a a single focus combo for around 500-600 dollar... Find a nice 200-300 dollar scope (16c, 16d variants etc.) and add a SLR Magic Rangefinder for 279, that is a great deal you have in the US. Sure, the RF has it's quirks and caveats, but you can get a taste of single focus freedom for an affordable price.

If your budget is a bit higher go straight for the FVD16, which is a good investment no matter what, as it performs well, has a non-rotating front and neutral coatings.

Then, when you have a  scope and single focus lens, the quest for stable rigging begins haha...Pooli might help you out there, but take one step at a time.

Hey Timotheus, I have not mentioned a budget yet. Originally, I was planning on getting in as cheap as possible for around the numbers you mentioned. But after watching a bunch of videos, I started to think that I may sell my BMMCC and c-mount lenses, so I can buy a Kowa B&H. However, I imagine the c-mounts won't be a quick sale, so in the meantime, I may buy a 16-D/Elmoscope l, if I find one for a good price, just to get a feel for it.

I figured I would just double focus for now, or maybe buy the FVD16 to split the investment up a little... but I hadn't realized the Rangefinder was that cheap.

Do you think the Rangefinder is good enough to keep with a 16D/Elmoscope if I choose to keep both set ups? Or do you think two set ups would be redundant?

As I said in my original post, up until now I have been shooting with IS lenses handheld, or using an unextended monopod in combination with a tape measure pouch I hook onto my belt. For future projects I'd like to use a tripod, slider and eventually integrate a Glidecam or gimbal into my arsenal/skill set.

With that said, my shooting will still be somewhat run and gun, so the most compact/lightweight rig is paramount. Sorry, I don't know who/what Pooli is... haha?

I guess I'll have another post regarding rigging in the not too distant future.

Thanks for any suggestions you may have!