Upgrading from the Panasonic G7

[stv]

Hey all, I've been looking to upgrade from the Panasonic G7 for a while now and have been eyeing the GH5, Fuji X-T3 and more recently the G9 (thanks to the firmware update) as potential replacements. With Black Friday deals in abundance at the moment, I feel more tempted than ever to take the plunge. That said, I thought I'd consult the vast EOSHD knowledge bank before making a final decision.

One of my big questions is, which camera am I likely to see the biggest improvement from? Will I even see that great of an improvement image quality wise if I move to any of these cameras? Also, does the APS-C sensor of the X-T3 outweigh the benefits gained from having IBIS? I've never used a camera with IBIS before and I'm not sure if I'm overvaluing or undervaluing how much of an impact I think it'd have on my shooting. 

Secondly, with the recent Panasonic firmware update, should the G9 be considered before the GH5 if 10 bit recording is one of the main reasons for upgrading? One thing that's still keeping the GH5 in contention for me is that I shoot a lot of 1080/24p and this latest firmware update appears to have omitted that from the G9's 10 bit recording options (25p and 30p seem to be available). Additionally, the price difference between the G9 and GH5 here in Australia is only 200 AUD (135 USD). I don't know how much use I'd get out of the additional GH5 features and I don't know how much worse the photography aspect of the GH5 is compared to the G9. Also, is the 180fps in the G9 comparable in quality to the 180fps in the GH5?

Lastly, because I still intend to shoot a lot of 1080, how does the X-T3's 1080 quality stack up against the GH5's 1080?

Apologies for the barrage of questions, but I've been racking my brains out over the last couple of days and still can't come to a decision..........which is making me start to think that maybe I shouldn't upgrade at all ?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[thebrothersthre3]

The jump in IQ is definitely more noticeable with the XT3. 

The GH5 has the best 1080p though, virtually no moire/aliasing. The XT3 is definitely more prone to moire and aliasing but less so in 4k. The XT3 definitely is ahead in the 4k department having 10 bit in 4k 60p. Its 120p also beats the GH5's imho. The extra stop and a half of dynamic range is noticeable on the XT3 coming from the GH5, even more noticeable coming from a G7.

If you have a slower PC the GH5's H254 10 bit is nice, especially in 1080p. 10 bit H264 200mbps All-I runs nicely in premiere. Fuji you are stuck with H265 which is a bitch, but if you have a better PC its no problem. 

If you can link up with some local video people and test out the cameras that's always the best way. You'd be surprised how many people would be willing to do that. 

I think you'd definitely appreciate either camera. The IBIS on the GH5 can be magical. 

[Anaconda_]

I'm in a very similar position, wanting to upgrade my take everywhere camera from my loved GX80 to something with a mic input at the very least. IBIS is amazing, but I think there are other things in a camera that are more important. (codec, bitrate, etc.)

For a few weeks, I've been to-and-fro-ing between the Fuji XT30, XT3 and XH1 (and every now and then the Sigma FP, but I'm pretty sure that's ruled out after a conversation in that thread).

XT30 is amazingly cheap at the moment, and similarish in size to the GX80. - But I feel like if I go with that, I'll be pining over it's bigger brother in a couple months.

XT3 has the best video specs of the three with 10bit DCI 60p and the best 1080/120p

XH1 tops out at 8bit DCI 24p, but it does have IBIS.

As for Black Friday deals. I'm not sure if it's the same where you are, but in Europe Fuji has a €200 cashback on many of their cameras. This will last until 5th Jan, so it can give you more time to think about it. I think the worst thing you could do is rush into a decision just because there's a sale. After all, if you're only now upgrading from the 5-year-old g7, this next one will likely need to keep you happy for another 5 years. There will be another sale in January, then an easter sale, then summer sale.

@thebrothersthre3 - XT3 can shoot in h264 as well, unless you want DCI60/50p - any other resolution or frame rate is fine for h264

[newfoundmass]

You'll notice an improvement in IQ on all those cameras, for sure, though the G7 is still has a very good image. What kind of work are you doing? 

For me personally I lean towards the GH5 because the IBIS and all of the video centric features. I do a lot of handheld work, and the IBIS allows me to get stable footage with a stripped down set up. It's kind of the Swiss army knife of cameras, it can handle pretty much everything you throw at it. The 1080p on the GH5 is also fantastic. 

Still if the X-T3 had comparable IBIS and didn't have the recording limit I'd be very, very tempted. 

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

 

@thebrothersthre3 - XT3 can shoot in h264 as well, unless you want DCI60/50p - any other resolution or frame rate is fine for h264

Yes but it can't do H264 in 10 bit unfortunately which is a bummer for me. It just means I have to transcode everything, which isn't the end of the world, just an inconvenience. 

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You'll notice an improvement in IQ on all those cameras, for sure, though the G7 is still has a very good image. What kind of work are you doing? 

For me personally I lean towards the GH5 because the IBIS and all of the video centric features. I do a lot of handheld work, and the IBIS allows me to get stable footage with a stripped down set up. It's kind of the Swiss army knife of cameras, it can handle pretty much everything you throw at it. The 1080p on the GH5 is also fantastic. 

Still if the X-T3 had comparable IBIS and didn't have the recording limit I'd be very, very tempted. 

The record limit on the XT3 is another bummer, though 30 minutes in 4k isn't terrible. Its only 15 minutes on the XT30 though. I've also had overheating on the XT30 shooting in 4k. 

[kye]

Looking at options is great, but you end up trying to compare if IBIS is better than having an extra 1.35 stops of DR, and you get no-where.

My advice is to:

• Understand the offerings in terms of what features they offer
• Review how you work and what features on offer actually matter
• Review if there are any limitations in how you work that would be eliminated (eg, IBIS makes going hand-held an option for some people)
• Evaluate the tech against your requirements and how you work

No point buying a camera because it works better for someone else and gets great reviews for doing things that you don't do.

And remember that when you're reading reviews most people who write reviews are review writers and may not actually do anything else except make reviews.  Which is why vloggers only review cameras as vlogging cameras....

[Shell64]

Fellow G7 user here. Honestly, I would use the money toward better glass, lighting, etc. Now this all depends on if you don’t already have these. But if you don’t, or have them but they are lower end, consider going this route. Maybe by an 18-35 and viltrox speedbooster, and an aperture 120d or something. I’ve been tempted to upgrade my g7, but I’ve decided investing in hq glass and lighting is a better investment. 

If you are fine with lighting and lenses you have, I personally think that your next camera really depends on your shooting style. Doing turn and gun?  Need a complete, ultra-reliable package with great IBIS?  Gh5/G9 is for you. Don’t need IBIS and want larger sensor/better stills?  XT3 for you. Really we can’t determine this for you. It really depends on your shooting style. 

Honestly I still think the g7 is fine. I would invest in better glass and lights. You will notice more improvement there. 

[kye]

+1 for considering lenses and lighting as @Shell64 suggests.

Really, it's about doing what you do, figuring out where the issues and problems and bottlenecks are, then working out what the most effective ways to address them are, typically starting with things that are free and quick and working your way up to the things that cost a lot of money.

Skill is often the limiting factor in a persons whole situation (it definitely is in mine!) because it takes huge effort, lots of time, and potentially also money, so it's not what people reach for first.  Although if you've got lots of time but little money and are highly motivated then you can work hard and that can really build your capacity quickly.

[stv]

12 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The jump in IQ is definitely more noticeable with the XT3. 

The GH5 has the best 1080p though, virtually no moire/aliasing. The XT3 is definitely more prone to moire and aliasing but less so in 4k. The XT3 definitely is ahead in the 4k department having 10 bit in 4k 60p. Its 120p also beats the GH5's imho. The extra stop and a half of dynamic range is noticeable on the XT3 coming from the GH5, even more noticeable coming from a G7.

If you have a slower PC the GH5's H254 10 bit is nice, especially in 1080p. 10 bit H264 200mbps All-I runs nicely in premiere. Fuji you are stuck with H265 which is a bitch, but if you have a better PC its no problem. 

If you can link up with some local video people and test out the cameras that's always the best way. You'd be surprised how many people would be willing to do that. 

I think you'd definitely appreciate either camera. The IBIS on the GH5 can be magical. 

I have to say I was initially leaning towards the GH5 because of the IBIS, but as you've pointed out, I feel like I'd notice a greater jump in image quality with the X-T3. That plus the fact that it's also great for photography is really making my decision harder and harder.

With regards to Panasonic's 10 bit H264 200mbps All-I recording format, do you know if it's compatible with V30 SD cards? 200mbps equates to 25 megabytes a second so V30 cards should theoretically be sufficient. I already have a stack of Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-I cards and have no intentions of purchasing any UHS-II cards in the short term.

12 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I'm in a very similar position, wanting to upgrade my take everywhere camera from my loved GX80 to something with a mic input at the very least. IBIS is amazing, but I think there are other things in a camera that are more important. (codec, bitrate, etc.)

For a few weeks, I've been to-and-fro-ing between the Fuji XT30, XT3 and XH1 (and every now and then the Sigma FP, but I'm pretty sure that's ruled out after a conversation in that thread).

XT30 is amazingly cheap at the moment, and similarish in size to the GX80. - But I feel like if I go with that, I'll be pining over it's bigger brother in a couple months.

XT3 has the best video specs of the three with 10bit DCI 60p and the best 1080/120p

XH1 tops out at 8bit DCI 24p, but it does have IBIS.

As for Black Friday deals. I'm not sure if it's the same where you are, but in Europe Fuji has a €200 cashback on many of their cameras. This will last until 5th Jan, so it can give you more time to think about it. I think the worst thing you could do is rush into a decision just because there's a sale. After all, if you're only now upgrading from the 5-year-old g7, this next one will likely need to keep you happy for another 5 years. There will be another sale in January, then an easter sale, then summer sale.

@thebrothersthre3 - XT3 can shoot in h264 as well, unless you want DCI60/50p - any other resolution or frame rate is fine for h264

Do you think IBIS is something you could live without? I feel that on the G7 I miss a lot of shots just because I can't keep the camera steady enough. If IBIS wasn't an issue, I think the X-T3 would already be on it's way to my home address.

12 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You'll notice an improvement in IQ on all those cameras, for sure, though the G7 is still has a very good image. What kind of work are you doing? 

For me personally I lean towards the GH5 because the IBIS and all of the video centric features. I do a lot of handheld work, and the IBIS allows me to get stable footage with a stripped down set up. It's kind of the Swiss army knife of cameras, it can handle pretty much everything you throw at it. The 1080p on the GH5 is also fantastic. 

Still if the X-T3 had comparable IBIS and didn't have the recording limit I'd be very, very tempted. 

I'm just a hobbyist who shoots for fun. To be honest, either of these cameras are probably overkill for my level of use, but the thought of a new camera is just so tempting. The Gh5's 1080 quality and IBIS are huge positives for me.

Do you guys do most of your recording in 4k or is a lot of it still done in 1080? Are there ever any situations where you actively choose  1080 over 4k? I'm not sure if I'm overvaluing the need for high quality 1080 recording. I guess the main reasons why I want good 1080 are because it takes up less space and there's less rolling shutter.

[Anaconda_]

29 minutes ago, stv said:

Do you think IBIS is something you could live without? I feel that on the G7 I miss a lot of shots just because I can't keep the camera steady enough. If IBIS wasn't an issue, I think the X-T3 would already be on it's way to my home address.

Absolutely. Professionally I don't use any camera with IBIS, and personally I haven't filmed anything with my GX80 for about a year. Instead I've been trying out other cameras. See below.

29 minutes ago, stv said:

Do you guys do most of your recording in 4k or is a lot of it still done in 1080? Are there ever any situations where you actively choose  1080 over 4k? I'm not sure if I'm overvaluing the need for high quality 1080 recording.

The other camera's I've been using are the original BMPCC and EOS-m with Magic Lantern in 1080p. The image from both is great, but transcoding all my ML footage before I can even watch it is a real turn off. That's partly why I bought a ludicrously cheap original BMPCC. Neither of these have IBIS, and I really like the footage from both. However, since I'm on the search for a holiday/family camera the BMPCC isn't ideal because of battery life, bad audio and no stills. EOS-m fits the bill more, but requires transcoding and fairly often crashes when switching from video to photo, then when I get home with 2 weeks worth of footage, it takes an age to transcode it all.

With that in mind, IBIS was the least of my worries and I don't feel like I've missed shots because I didn't have IBIS available. Instead of toying around with older cameras, I figure why not just buy something nice and be happy with it for years to come. With a neckstrap / monopod / loupe (or VF on the Fuji) you can get very stable footage with a natural, undisturbing shakiness. For me that's not a problem at all.

Regarding space - My philosophy is shoot at the very highest quality you can at the time because harddrives are cheap and will only continue to get cheaper. You can downscale your footage with minimal problems, but upscaling has it's limits. If a client wants a 1080p project, why not shoot it 4k, deliver them 1080p and then say 'oh by the way, I also have this as a 4k video if you'd like it' - under promise, over deliver. 

[stv]

10 hours ago, kye said:

My advice is to:

• Understand the offerings in terms of what features they offer
• Review how you work and what features on offer actually matter
• Review if there are any limitations in how you work that would be eliminated (eg, IBIS makes going hand-held an option for some people)
• Evaluate the tech against your requirements and how you work

No point buying a camera because it works better for someone else and gets great reviews for doing things that you don't do.

And remember that when you're reading reviews most people who write reviews are review writers and may not actually do anything else except make reviews.  Which is why vloggers only review cameras as vlogging cameras....

 

8 hours ago, Shell64 said:

Honestly I still think the g7 is fine. I would invest in better glass and lights. You will notice more improvement there. 

Thanks for the sensible advice guys. This is probably what i needed to hear but not what i wanted to hear! The thought of a whole new system is so alluring! hahahaha

I think i'll have to sit on this for a couple of days and reassess each option before making a rash decision.

[kye]

55 minutes ago, stv said:

Thanks for the sensible advice guys. This is probably what i needed to hear but not what i wanted to hear! The thought of a whole new system is so alluring! hahahaha

I think i'll have to sit on this for a couple of days and reassess each option before making a rash decision.

No worries.

I'll follow that up with more advice that you probably don't want to hear (lol)...  

I'm also a hobbyist who shoots for fun and I've also missed shots due to camera stability (plus I hate the jittery hand-held look when there's no stabilisation so that's an aesthetic choice).  I shoot GH5 hand-held with fully-manual lenses and therefore rely on the IBIS a lot.  It's spectacular, but has its limits.

Here's the advice you probably don't want to hear, unless you absolutely have to, don't shoot hand-held.  If you can shoot with a tripod or monopod, do that.  Can't do those?  Shoot with a shoulder rig or one of those grips that work like the stock of a rifle that you brace against your shoulder (or rest it on your belt).  Can't do those?  Get a loupe and press the camera against your face for stabilisation.  Can't do those?  Take @Anaconda_'s advice and learn to stabilise with a camera strap as the third point of contact.  ONLY after you've done those things should you go to shooting hand-held and relying on IBIS.  

I shoot hand-held but I can make a decent argument about all of the above, and have shot something like a dozen camera tests and half-a-dozen finished videos without any form of IS just to see if it was possible but even though I developed the skill it still didn't give me the look I wanted.

Cameras are awesome to talk about and fun to play with but you'd have to be pretty freaking good for a new camera to improve your videos more than taking the time you're spending talking about it and putting that into developing your technique, and putting the money you'd spend on equipment into unpaid leave from work and (you guessed it) developing your skills.  Some of the best videos online are shot with very modest equipment, or are uploaded in 720p to Vimeo from back in the day and are glorious despite not even being 1080.

Here's one:

Everything about this is glorious except the image quality, which your G7 would absolutely annihilate, but it's still better than anything I will ever make.  Most people are probably the same.

OK, lecture over.

Talking about modes on the GH5, I did some tests for myself between the 6K 200Mbps 4:3 10-bit h265 mode, the 4K 150Mbps 10-bit h264 mode, the 4K 50p 150Mbps 8-bit mode, and the 1080p50 10-bit ALL-I mode and concluded that the 6K mode wasn't worth the extra effort in post, and in 50p it was more useful having 4K than 10-bit.

Therefore, the modes I use are:

• 4K 150Mbps h264 10-bit 25p (this is by default - I only shoot slow-motion if I know I will want it in post)
• 4K 50p (if I want the dreamy but almost-reality look)
• 1080p125 (for sports, or if I want something to be a shot that screams LOOK AT ME I'M IN SLOW MOTION ISN'T THIS AWESOME)

For sports, the advice I got was to shoot ~120p unless you know you're going to want sound for that shot, in which case shoot normal speed, eg for huddles or pre-post-game interactions.  This was from @Mako Sports and makes a whole lot of sense and makes it really easy to know what modes to use when you're out shooting.

I also didn't want to pay for UHS-II cards, so am limited to the above bit-rates, but YT is only something like 25Mbps in 4K, and much less in 1080, so the difference between 150Mbps and 400 is probably inconsequential unless you've got a distribution deal of some kind.

Plus, if you must spend money, read this thread first......

I think there should be some kind of rule, like every lens should cost at least half of what your camera body costs......  

[thebrothersthre3]

7 hours ago, stv said:

I have to say I was initially leaning towards the GH5 because of the IBIS, but as you've pointed out, I feel like I'd notice a greater jump in image quality with the X-T3. That plus the fact that it's also great for photography is really making my decision harder and harder.

With regards to Panasonic's 10 bit H264 200mbps All-I recording format, do you know if it's compatible with V30 SD cards? 200mbps equates to 25 megabytes a second so V30 cards should theoretically be sufficient. I already have a stack of Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-I cards and have no intentions of purchasing any UHS-II cards in the short term.

Yep V30 cards work fine, on the XT3 as well. 

As others have said lighting and lenses are a big factor. If you are adapting glass and not using native lenses don't matter as much. 

If you don't light you stuff dynamic range goes a long way though. 

[newfoundmass]

Eff lighting and lenses... NEW CAMERA! 

?

That's really good advice, honestly. 

I'll still be filming on my GH5 for years to come and will likely sell my G85 and buy a second GH5 used when the used price lowers down even more. One, it's an incredible camera, and two, your camera isn't all that important, especially these days when you can get lovely images on a $300 camera. My lenses, mics, lights, filters, etc. are all things that will carry over with me for years and years to come. 

One thing I would suggest is, if you think you're going to move away from M43 in the not so distant future it'd probably make sense to invest in lenses that can adapt to other cameras. I have two Panasonic 12-35 f/2.8 lenses for my multi camera / sports / event work because having a native lens in those situations is beneficial. The rest of my lenses are pretty much all vintage and manual lenses with other mounts that I can easily adapt should the day come when I move to a different system. Switching systems can get pretty expensive, especially if you have to get all new lenses. 

Another reason to stick with the G7 is that it still has a very nice image. It's a little limiting when it comes to color grading, dynamic range, etc. but to me it's still a relevant camera in 2019 and beyond, especially for beginners and hobbyists. Though I've started suggesting the G85 to beginners and hobbyist since the used price has gone down so much, the G7 is still a killer little camera. 

[newfoundmass]

8 hours ago, stv said:

Do you guys do most of your recording in 4k or is a lot of it still done in 1080? Are there ever any situations where you actively choose  1080 over 4k? I'm not sure if I'm overvaluing the need for high quality 1080 recording. I guess the main reasons why I want good 1080 are because it takes up less space and there's less rolling shutter.

On newer M43 cameras there's not a ton of difference, re: rolling shutter, between 1080p and 4K. For me, the main benefit is smaller file sizes. For simple projects where I know I won't need 4K I'll still film in 1080p, especially on the GH5, because I know how good the 1080p is. 

Not all 1080p is equal though. You'll wanna research the 1080p for any potential camera you're purchasing if you still intend to use it. A friend of mine found that out the hard way when he bought a Sony: the 1080p was awful and he is forced to shoot 4K to get decent 1080p now. 

[stv]

12 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

With that in mind, IBIS was the least of my worries and I don't feel like I've missed shots because I didn't have IBIS available. Instead of toying around with older cameras, I figure why not just buy something nice and be happy with it for years to come. With a neckstrap / monopod / loupe (or VF on the Fuji) you can get very stable footage with a natural, undisturbing shakiness. For me that's not a problem at all.

I have a monopod, which is great, but there are situations where I can't carry that around with me all the time. Sounds like I need to work on my shooting technique.

[stv]

Gahhh, you're talking way too much sense for my liking @kye. I think you've crushed any argument I have for purchasing a new camera, especially when you take into account that I only shoot for fun.

Looking at that video (which is awesome by the way), it's crazy to see how far cameras have come in such a short amount of time and how spoiled we are with all the low cost options that are available today. Imagine what filmmakers would be thinking if you could go back in time 15 years and show them something like the G7. They would be blown away. Meanwhile, here I am, a casual hobbyist at best, thinking that I need gradable 10bit footage to shoot some video tests that probably no one is ever going to see. Hah! Thanks for putting things into perspective for me. My wallet thanks you.

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Eff lighting and lenses... NEW CAMERA! 

Ok scrap everything I just said. NEW CAMERA! NEW CAMERA! hahaha

[thebrothersthre3]

IBIS is definitely helpful if you want to be able to just run around with a camera and no equipment. I was shooting on the S1H today in Super35 mode at 70mm and getting really stable footage. 

The question to upgrade or not would be if the new camera would solve problems for you. If you are doing fine with the G7 there's not a need to upgrade beside gear lust. 

 

[kye]

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

On newer M43 cameras there's not a ton of difference, re: rolling shutter, between 1080p and 4K. For me, the main benefit is smaller file sizes. For simple projects where I know I won't need 4K I'll still film in 1080p, especially on the GH5, because I know how good the 1080p is. 

Not all 1080p is equal though. You'll wanna research the 1080p for any potential camera you're purchasing if you still intend to use it. A friend of mine found that out the hard way when he bought a Sony: the 1080p was awful and he is forced to shoot 4K to get decent 1080p now. 

My tests with the GH5 4K vs 1080 they looked the same when exported on a 1080 timeline, it was only when exported on a 4K timeline that the 4K had an edge.

Also, RS doesn't matter much to me in how I shoot.  I shoot hand-held because I mostly shoot in places where tripods and 'professional' filming isn't allowed, but my shots are typically either stationary shots or slow pan/tilts, and I'm not shooting action that much either (except sports which I shoot in 120p) so RS doesn't come into play that much.  

[Shell64]

Man, I needed this. I was thinking of upgrading my G7, but @kye you convinced me to invest in lighting and lenses. Thanks!