frontfocus Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 7:47 AM, JurijTurnsek said: You misunderstand me. What is keeping Sony from making a 48mpx (12mpx output) sensor that does 120p with no crop. Who even cares about the additional 3mpx, unless there is some important reason behind this choice. Expand The sensor is probably based on the same pixel design as the 60Mp A7R IV sensor, so this way is much easier and more efficient than designing another sensor with 48Mp from the ground up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxotis70 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 maybe its because of EIS...it needs more room to do good electronic stabilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 7:47 AM, JurijTurnsek said: You misunderstand me. What is keeping Sony from making a 48mpx (12mpx output) sensor that does 120p with no crop. Who even cares about the additional 3mpx, unless there is some important reason behind this choice. Expand Sony Semicon already has a 10MP sensor that does 4K 120p with no crop On 12/16/2019 at 7:57 AM, toxotis70 said: maybe its because of EIS...it needs more room to do good electronic stabilization. Expand There’s no EIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gianluca Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 And what the point of 15 megapixel and not 12? To have a crop? In still mode, it's possibile to get 61 megapixel images? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokara Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 7:47 AM, JurijTurnsek said: You misunderstand me. What is keeping Sony from making a 48mpx (12mpx output) sensor that does 120p with no crop. Who even cares about the additional 3mpx, unless there is some important reason behind this choice. Expand 48 mpx will require a lot of processing, which will translate into heat, which will translate into no 4K120. The sensor he listed has a quad beyer structure, which means that pixels are arranged in groups of 4 same color filters, unlike the conventional beyer filter. So, even though it is a 60 mpx sensor, it acts like a 15 mpx sensor because of how the filter structure is arranged. On 12/16/2019 at 9:59 AM, Gianluca said: And what the point of 15 megapixel and not 12? To have a crop? In still mode, it's possibile to get 61 megapixel images? Expand No, it has groups of 4 pixels that behave like 1 pixel when it comes to gathering light. Debeyering would not work with that system, unless it treated the sensor as a 15 mpx sensor. So your stills would be 15 mpx resolution. It is basically a modified a7R4 sensor with a different beyer filter arrangement so that it acts like a 15 mpx sensor. The sensor readout would be pixel binned (which you can do without problems because the binned pixels are all the same color) and then processed as a 15 mpx image using normal deyeyering. Because it is based off the existing sensor (just with a different filter) it comes out as 15 mpx rather than something else like 12 mpx (which would require the design of a completely new sensor, increasing cost) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurijTurnsek Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Oh, for crying out loud. I know what a Quad Bayer sensor is, no need to explain. Sony has 60mpx and 48mpx FF sensors on offer and to create a 15mpx Quad Bayer sensor, they had to redo the 60mpx sensor. What the hell stopped them from doing the same to their 48mpx sensor that would then output 12mpx and provide no crop in any readout mode. Also, coming from reviews of mobile phone sensors, Quad Bayer offers better sharpness and no gain in low light over a conventional 12mpx sensor. How does the higher pixel count affect the read-out speed? Is the binning done on the sensor itself? Highly doubt it. Increased sharpness is not cinematic as per this forum, so why would Sony pursue this in their video-centric body? They should at least give the option to output 8K to an external recorder if the pixels are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abehalpert Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Sonyalpharumors just reiterated that they leaked this sensor in July... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 11:56 AM, abehalpert said: Sonyalpharumors just reiterated that they leaked this sensor in July... Expand I leaked before them, in the A7S III thread buried somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gianluca Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I really don't understand the benefit to go with 15 megapixel from 12.... Moreover there's a 48 megapixel quad pixel sensor like this 60/4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Williams Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 11:56 AM, abehalpert said: Sonyalpharumors just reiterated that they leaked this sensor in July... Expand Which means there’s not really a reason to assume that the camera is coming any day now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abehalpert Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 12:51 PM, androidlad said: I leaked before them, in the A7S III thread buried somewhere. Expand That may be true, but Andrew's article reads, "The sensor for the A7S III has leaked on the EOSHD Forum..." This makes it sound like the info just came to light. Everybody was speculating in July that it might be the A7S3 sensor, but when the camera never materialized and the rumor mill quieted down, I bought an S1. We'll see what Sony releases and what the reviews say. But if Sony uses quad bayer to give us live HDR that could be amazing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 2:48 AM, Mako Sports said: Fuji does use Sony sensors... Expand Ah, they just use a different layout. Well, add them to the list! On 12/16/2019 at 11:54 AM, JurijTurnsek said: What the hell stopped them from doing the same to their 48mpx sensor that would then output 12mpx and provide no crop in any readout mode. Expand Balance, my friend, balance. They can‘t just give you 4K120p without nerfing it a bit. This is a universal law of camera products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokara Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 11:54 AM, JurijTurnsek said: Oh, for crying out loud. I know what a Quad Bayer sensor is, no need to explain. Sony has 60mpx and 48mpx FF sensors on offer and to create a 15mpx Quad Bayer sensor, they had to redo the 60mpx sensor. What the hell stopped them from doing the same to their 48mpx sensor that would then output 12mpx and provide no crop in any readout mode. Also, coming from reviews of mobile phone sensors, Quad Bayer offers better sharpness and no gain in low light over a conventional 12mpx sensor. How does the higher pixel count affect the read-out speed? Is the binning done on the sensor itself? Highly doubt it. Increased sharpness is not cinematic as per this forum, so why would Sony pursue this in their video-centric body? They should at least give the option to output 8K to an external recorder if the pixels are there. Expand The 48 mpx sensors are older and consequently probably perform less well. Resolution is always important. You can make an image softer in post if that is what you want, but you can't recover resolution that has been dumped due to the sensor design. The "sharpness" setting in cameras is simply a debeyering parameter. With 4 separate inputs per pixel you potentially can calculate the true color of a pixel more accurately after debeyering than what would otherwise be possible, hence less color error at edges (in other words, less halo effect), which in turn would increase the color resolution of the sensor. You would not need to turn down sharpening in camera as much to avoid color artifacts at edges, basically a better raw image to work with than conventional sensors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted December 16, 2019 Administrators Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 11:56 AM, abehalpert said: Sonyalpharumors just reiterated that they leaked this sensor in July... Expand Professional web surfers. Who made the rumours sites any kind of authority? andrgl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntblowz Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 12:51 PM, androidlad said: I leaked before them, in the A7S III thread buried somewhere. Expand you should really start your own sony rumor site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 1:03 AM, ntblowz said: you should really start your own sony rumor site Expand He does. Androidlad posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abehalpert Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 10:40 PM, Andrew Reid said: Professional web surfers. Who made the rumours sites any kind of authority? Expand Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurijTurnsek Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 9:48 PM, Mokara said: The 48 mpx sensors are older and consequently probably perform less well. Resolution is always important. You can make an image softer in post if that is what you want, but you can't recover resolution that has been dumped due to the sensor design. The "sharpness" setting in cameras is simply a debeyering parameter. With 4 separate inputs per pixel you potentially can calculate the true color of a pixel more accurately after debeyering than what would otherwise be possible, hence less color error at edges (in other words, less halo effect), which in turn would increase the color resolution of the sensor. You would not need to turn down sharpening in camera as much to avoid color artifacts at edges, basically a better raw image to work with than conventional sensors. Expand No-crop video capture has been a very prominent feature of Sony cameras (up untill a7R VI and a6300 respectively). A crop factor for a standout feature (120p) sounds like shoddy product planning in a video-centric body, unless they use those additional mpx for EIS (beginning to sound like a broken record here). Maybe the APS-C crop mode would be atrocious with the 48mpx Quad Bayer and is acceptable with the 60mpx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis L Sorensen Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 "because this has the potential to cannibalise both for resolution, low light and 4K quality." Well. Dont you worry Andrew. The 100mbps will make sure the 15mp quad bayered pixels are shitty as always ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 My guess is it will have XEVC and then we’ll be complaining that nothing can edit it. newfoundmass 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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