How to make a living making videos

[Zach Ashcraft]

I'd love to start a discussion and just see where it goes. Personally, I'm just curious as to what the people on this forum do, and what kind of careers are available for freelance videographers. I have a music degree so am pretty unfamiliar with the landscape of video careers.

 

I work part time as a production intern as a church, and additionally film and (mostly) photographic weddings for additional income. I feel like if I had to go full-time freelance I could, though it would certainly be a scary prospect. 

 

Is there part-time/full-time work readily available for skilled film-makers outside of hollywood? Do corporations usually contract out or do they have internal media teams? What kind of work have you all done in the past/present?

[maxotics]

I believe all independent "creative" project work suffers the same business/financial limitations.

 

1. The ratio of clients to advertising dollars will be too low to justify advertising/marketing your way to a profitable business.  This is why so many buy a lot of equipment and advertising and soon you see their stuff for sale on Ebay.

 

2. All businesses succeed in either two ways.  "Right place and right time" (like you got into music videos when MTV started, or slow-mo video when it became hot, etc).  Or two, you are persistent and focused for a enough years to establish yourself.  Word of mouth is what gets you clients and it takes time, always more than you expect/want....need ;)

 

3. You need enough skill to be competent, but after that, too much effort in the art, versus, marketing, it detrimental financially.

 

4. Ultimately, you're going to need a large client that pays your nut.  It might be a Church at a corporate level, or a local utility company, etc.  Or maybe a powerful wedding planner, etc.  As they say, you'll put in the same time for a $20,000 client as you will a $2,000.

 

To really answer your question, there is no one way corporations or any potential client does things.  I don't work in video, but in a similar way.  What it took me years to see is that I can't "structure" my services to what I think clients rationally want.  Often, if I can do 10 things, and I think item 10 is the hardest, most accomplished, and 1 is the easiest which anyone can do, often the client values 1 the most and 10 the least.  You have to let the client pay you for what they value.  If the client wants to pay you $10,000 to do 1 and you bill $1,000, hoping they'll do 10 one day, you'll learn the hard way as I did.  Charge what the client will pay for what the client wants.  Do NOT negotiate their end of the deal.  After you determine what you need to charge to stay in business charge that at minimum.  Naturally, you'll take jobs where you're paid 1/10th of what you're worth, because you love it.  That means you have to let clients pay you 10x what you're worth sometimes to do something that you know a simpleton could do--again, listen to what the clients wants, not what you think they need.

 

Ultimately, your job is to free up the client's time to focus on something else. Yes, you need to do a good job, but you have to keep in mind you're always a part of a larger goal.

 

Well, dog has to be walked so I'll write more later if this thread goes anywhere.  Set aside 5 years to build a video business, keep an open mind as to how that my evolve, who your clients may become, what you may end up specializing in, and you'll get there.  

 

Just keep in mind you'll make less money than in a corporation.  So you have to really value your independence.

[PatrickN]

I think maxotics gave some solid advice.

 

 

4. Ultimately, you're going to need a large client that pays your nut.  It might be a Church at a corporate level, or a local utility company, etc.  Or maybe a powerful wedding planner, etc.  As they say, you'll put in the same time for a $20,000 client as you will a $2,000.

 

To really answer your question, there is no one way corporations or any potential client does things.  I don't work in video, but in a similar way.  What it took me years to see is that I can't "structure" my services to what I think clients rationally want.  Often, if I can do 10 things, and I think item 10 is the hardest, most accomplished, and 1 is the easiest which anyone can do, often the client values 1 the most and 10 the least.  You have to let the client pay you for what they value.  If the client wants to pay you $10,000 to do 1 and you bill $1,000, hoping they'll do 10 one day, you'll learn the hard way as I did.  Charge what the client will pay for what the client wants.  Do NOT negotiate their end of the deal.  

 

 

I have met so many photographers working for nothing hoping to get "the BIG" job in the future. That usually newer happens.

How can you justify getting payed much more  when you once agreed on working for scraps ?

 

I soon learnt to think as if  every jod I did was the last time I worked for that client for 2 reasons.

 

1. ppl in advertising sometimes change who's their favorite photographer as ppl change underwear( even though you have always delivered top quality material ).

2. To keep myself  doing the very best I could(  for the money they payed and we had agreed on they should get ) on every job I got.

 

I'm not trying to discourage you to take the leap because if if it's something you really want...... go for it... but be really prepared when you do.

 

 

[dbp]

I worked at a small production company in Canada for 3 years. I got some great experience, as I got to be the main editor, shooter, motion graphics artist. We even did a lot of live streaming. So I got to wear many hats rather than having to start from the bottom logging footage at a larger company.

 

The downside was that there wasn't much of a market for video in that city. There was 2 or 3 production companies in town and that's it. I moved to Vancouver, and my old employer ended up folding a few months later. Had I stuck around, I would've been really hard up for work. 

 

In Vancouver, I decided to tackle the freelance world. There's way, way more going on here (not surprising) but it's been challenging establishing myself. I get most of my gigs responding to craigslist ads. They are hit or miss, some are bottom feeders looking for cheap rates... others are from legit production companies looking for sub contractors. My most steady client is actually one that I met through doing volunteer work. I am not the most business savvy, so I think freelancing success is based as much on your business acumen and willingness to hustle for work rather than your skill.  There is a lot of competition, but also a lot of clients and work.

 

I don't have any involvement in the film industry, but working with a few people who do, it can be pretty lucrative.

 

Freelancing is basically exchanging security and, currently at least, higher pay for more freedom. It's stressful, but working from home and having more creative control is something I'm willing to fight for. I think it really comes down to the individual and what they value more. 

 

I will say this... IMO, unless you have a steady stream of high end clients, I think it's a mistake for people to invest in expensive gear in this day and age. The low end, the GH2s, BMPCC, etc etc... can produce really great stuff if you know what you're doing. Clients do not care or notice quality nearly to the degree that we do here. I still use an HMC150 for a lot of gigs and people are thrilled with the results.

 

Of course, at the high end they have different expectations, and you can probably pay off a Red pretty quick. 

 

 

[maxotics]

Yes, PatrickN is right!  I was a bit misleading.  If you charge less they often think you're worth less.  If you split up your time as 30% marketing, 30% administrative, that leaves you 40% say, so that would be, say 8 days a month, and you need $8,000 a month to live, then you need to charge a day rate of $1,000.  If you factor in equipment and profit even more.  

 

I would say that like PatrickN I did too many jobs cheaply that I thought would turn out into something.  Usually they didn't.  Maybe they NEVER did.  I don't want to think about it ;)

[QuickHitRecord]

I work for a big corporation. I have never freelanced and I often wonder what it would be like to set my own schedule and have more creative control. I suppose that the grass is always greener. But many of my friends and old classmates who freelance seem to think that I have the "holy grail" of video jobs. I never wanted to believe this, because I often feel that we are steered away from making the visually striking and thought-provoking content that I have always wanted to create. But then about two years ago, my boss posted an ad for another Producer -- basically my job. We got a lot of replies, and now every freelancer that I meet asks where I work, and then tells me that they applied for that position. We are certainly not the only in-house creative department in the area, but this has happened dozens of times.

 

So, the question that I pose to the other people looking in on this thread is this: apart from the established filmmakers, hot-ticket commercial DPs, and above-the-line production folks, are a steady paycheck and health benefits really as good as it gets for people in our field?

[maxotics]

QuickHitRecord comparing "freelance" to "corporate" work is "6 of one, half dozen of the other."  They have different pros and cons; net-net, they are equal.  It's really a question of what fits your personality, as dbp said.  

 

It seems to me, that everyone I know has pretty much gotten the career they've wanted.  Not 100% of course, but closer than i would have expected.

 

When I worked in Hollywood in my 20s I saw that though "successful" people seemed to really enjoy what they did, they weren't any happier than me.  The simple fact is, the more success you have the more time you have to spend with other people and the more political stuff you need to deal with.  And of course, the pressure.  It's easy to go up, most people can't deal with going down, which happens to everyone.  Every level of success, so to speak, has its relative scale of "good as it gets."  

 

My acid test is simple.  Whose job and life do I want?  That's what you have to ask yourself before making changing anything.  If you think the life of a hot-ticket commercial DP is better than yours, then you have to have evidence that it is so.  Do they have the same personal relationships.  Time to do what they want, etc, etc.  

 

All this is the same for all fields.  I suggest you read (or watch the movie, which has a slightly different slant) "The Man In The Gray Flannel Suit".  That movie is about exactly the questions you raise.  As true today!  I went through a similar process and made the same choice he did.  

[QuickHitRecord]

My acid test is simple.  Whose job and life do I want?  That's what you have to ask yourself before making changing anything.  If you think the life of a hot-ticket commercial DP is better than yours, then you have to have evidence that it is so.  Do they have the same personal relationships.  Time to do what they want, etc, etc.   

 

This is good advice and comes at a very timely moment for me in more ways than one.

 

I watched the film. Didn't love it, but it had its moments. Did Gregory Peck's character make the right call? I think that he did for his family. Would it be for me? I'm not sure about that yet.

[QuickHitRecord]

From where I stand, I believe that making a living in this industry comes down to being willing to share credit and to take criticism, having a willingness to learn regardless of your experience level, and going out of your way to make the life of the person that hired you a little easier.

 

Also, punctuality and responsiveness to emails.

 

These are the kinds of people that I want to hire (and be hired by).

[maxotics]

Did Gregory Peck's character make the right call? I think that he did for his family. Would it be for me? I'm not sure about that yet.

 

The book focuses more on his career at what is thinly disguised as CBS (way back when).  There are many kinds of happiness you can buy, or enjoy through success.  You can't buy or succeed your way into a happy marriage--in my opinion.  You're either lucky or you're not.  I  was lucky, and I think the character in the book similarly so.  I didn't think I was lucky at the time. Anyway, it wasn't the Ace I wanted but someone I had the presence of mind not to throw out the one dealt to me (though again, I had not idea it was an Ace at the time!).

 

Even if it's possible to have a happy marriage where you might board a jet at a moment's notice for business, do you want it?  If you have someone you want to be with (and I mean this in the simplest way), why would you leave?  My wife and I share few interests yet I'm always happy if she's just doing her thing and I'm doing my thing and we're in the same house.  Can I, or anyone, have both? 

 

This is all extremely relevant to Zach's question.  No one works alone.  Whether married or not, we all have, and seek, relationships.  Deciding who you want to be with answers many of these questions.  

 

I agree, that movie is nothing great, here are some more, than I think worth watching.

 

"A New Leaf" 

"Pete N' Tillie"

"Razor's Edge"

"Brief Encounter"

"Dodsworth"

 

On divorce, this, to me is a masterpiece:

 

"Shoot The Moon"

 

Interestingly most of these movies don't have high reviews at IMDB.  

[skiphunt]

If you have someone you want to be with (and I mean this in the simplest way), why would you leave?  My wife and I share few interests yet I'm always happy if she's just doing her thing and I'm doing my thing and we're in the same house.  Can I, or anyone, have both? 

 

 

I have this with my wife, and wouldn't trade it for the world... but, still trying to have both. If I was pushed to have either or, I'd take what I have now over anything else. That, and the MOST important thing of all... good physical & mental health. :)

[Zach Ashcraft]

Great discussion and thoughts everyone, thanks for chiming in. 

 

For the record, this thread was mostly birthed out of curiosity more than anything and not a huge desire to become a full-time videographer in some regard. Photography is more my calling and I'm enjoying the heck out of weddings, but I do also enjoy creating documentaries and other short stories. Thanks for your thoughts