Sony A7R IV - can confirm colour is still SH**!

[Andrew Reid]

Pro Color nearly ready for the A7R IV / A6400 and it might include a handy Creative Style this time which works on some Sony cameras without picture profiles (*cough* A9 *cough*). Will reveal all next week.

The white balance system Sony is using baffles me. You have so much as a slither of different temperature light source in the frame and starts going wobbly adjusting for that, wreaking the dominant light temperature in the scene.

The Leica SL2 is an Alexa for colour. In 10bit L-LOG you can apply the Alexa LOG to Rec.709 profile in Premiere and it is 100% perfect. No secret there who Leica are working with on their colour science.

So I started by matching the A7R IV to the SL2 and I think I have made some progress.

If Sony does not dust off their old Minolta / A900 colour science soon, I am going to be very rich.

Apart from the same old dreadful white balance and uninspired picture profiles, it's a great camera!

[Super8]

Why doesn't Sony adjust their color science?  Isn't Sony's color science better in the FS7 ?

 

[Django]

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

Why doesn't Sony adjust their color science?  Isn't Sony's color science better in the FS7 ?

 

Not really. great thing about the FS7 is that in 10-bit Cine EI mode you got all the necessary flexibility, and with in-camera LUT support u can basically get Venice CS SOOC..

[kye]

IIRC the tests i've seen showed that the Sony (the one they were testing anyway) was the most colour accurate of the bunch, more accurate than Canon, Fuji and the like.

Of course, that's different to what is the most pleasing, and to that end, I agree that Sony doesn't do the best job.  I have also seen some strange WB choices from Sony shooters in the past too.

[Mako Sports]

59 minutes ago, kye said:

IIRC the tests i've seen showed that the Sony (the one they were testing anyway) was the most colour accurate of the bunch, more accurate than Canon, Fuji and the like.

Of course, that's different to what is the most pleasing, and to that end, I agree that Sony doesn't do the best job.  I have also seen some strange WB choices from Sony shooters in the past too.

Sony is the most accurate, then again accurate isn't always pleasing. 

[jagnje]

2 hours ago, Django said:

Not really. great thing about the FS7 is that in 10-bit Cine EI mode you got all the necessary flexibility, and with in-camera LUT support u can basically get Venice CS SOOC..

Fs7 is a great camera, with good colors. It's not the 10 bit that saves it, it's the person using it, aka not a "filmaker dad" who is also a self taught colorist, and is writing a script for a short movie in which his friend will star, so all he needs now is to complete his contanx zeiss collection which curently consists of a 50mm 1.8 and he'll be on his way to vimeo stardom.

As for sony, I don't know about their latest consumer cameras, but I owned the og a7s and it was fine in natural light, but once introduced to diferent light sources it was shit. I then started to replace and tweak lights to battle it, but soon realised it was way cheaper to buy a better camera

 

[Django]

4 hours ago, jagnje said:

Fs7 is a great camera, with good colors. It's not the 10 bit that saves it, it's the person using it, aka not a "filmaker dad" who is also a self taught colorist, and is writing a script for a short movie in which his friend will star, so all he needs now is to complete his contanx zeiss collection which curently consists of a 50mm 1.8 and he'll be on his way to vimeo stardom.

 

No need to be condescending or romanticize the camera as some kind of elite DOP members only unit.

FS7 is a tool. A damn good one but the fact remains like on most Sony’s the SOOC color science and WB is shit.

If it weren’t why does Sony make such a big deal about its successor FX9 having much improved CS, skin tones etc?

In Cine EI mode, arguably the FS7’s most interesting mode to shoot in.. you only get 3 WB temp settings! Madness, and another thing the FX9 fixes.

Fortunately, it is the very high bit rate 10-bit 422 that saves you in post to adjust the WB & color match your footage accurately because all the color info is kept there.

And again in camera LUT support means you can easily import your favorite look and have decent CS SOOC if you so desire.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Django said:

If it weren’t why does Sony make such a big deal about its successor FX9 having much improved CS, skin tones etc?

Oh, I don't know...  I thought the standard like for marketing was that every time a product is released it's both NEW and IMPROVED...  ???

[ajay]

It really is a pain in the ass with Sony cameras and skin tones. I do use Andrew's color profiles and they do help tremendously but it sure would be nice to be able to obtain skin tones that are pleasing to the eye straight out of the camera. Canon and Fuji color science is really good.  The Z Cam E2 is really good as well.

[wind1414]

Nikon is also better.

[Super8]

12 hours ago, jagnje said:

Fs7 is a great camera, with good colors. It's not the 10 bit that saves it, it's the person using it, aka not a "filmaker dad" who is also a self taught colorist, and is writing a script for a short movie in which his friend will star, so all he needs now is to complete his contanx zeiss collection which curently consists of a 50mm 1.8 and he'll be on his way to vimeo stardom.

As for sony, I don't know about their latest consumer cameras, but I owned the og a7s and it was fine in natural light, but once introduced to diferent light sources it was shit. I then started to replace and tweak lights to battle it, but soon realised it was way cheaper to buy a better camera

 

Don't worry that "filmaker Dad" is the one that's going to hire or fire you.  You do sound like a worried DP that's afraid to share what he knows because he's always protecting his job.  We all know a few of these guys.  Lol.

 

[jagnje]

10 hours ago, Super8 said:

Don't worry that "filmaker Dad" is the one that's going to hire or fire you.  You do sound like a worried DP that's afraid to share what he knows because he's always protecting his job.  We all know a few of these guys.  Lol.

 

Hahah, belive I'm no woried DP nor don't I see myself ever being fired or hired by a filmaker dad

I have seen bad bad bad footage from every kind of camera, it's not sony specific, and I have seen good footage from most. The thing is that people "need" the latitude to grade their own footage, when most don't have a clue what they're doing. Hell, most tutorials from the people that will make you think they're in the know how are bullshit. No amount od andrews magic plug and play luts will make your footage look good with a single click. It's like buying a pair of sneakers and trying to get to the olympics. 

Oh, and I don't have secrets, nor do I mind sharing anything. In fact, there are no secrets anymore, hell Roger Deakins will tell and show you how he goes about filming. 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, kye said:

Oh, I don't know...  I thought the standard like for marketing was that every time a product is released it's both NEW and IMPROVED...  ???

I can 100% bet as *certain* that even ARRI themselves will brag about "better colors" and such once they bring out their new sensor this year. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, jagnje said:

In fact, there are no secrets anymore, hell Roger Deakins will tell and show you how he goes about filming.

Roger Deakins (and others) might tell you what they know, to the best of their ability, but the problem is that the better someone is the more likely they have unconscious competence, and aren't actually aware of how they do what they do.  It's full of "natural talent", "having a good eye", and "making it so it looks right".

That's why teaching is a skill separate to the skills of what is being taught, and why someone can coach the worlds best in something - coaching is the skill of being able to teach someone else to do something you could never do.

[Andrew Reid]

I think if Deakins was let down by his Alexa and dreadful skin tones, he'd consider it a big waste of time.

And I think that way about Sony's cameras. A big waste of time.

I can spend hours dialling in the right settings which look great for one subject, but awful for another.

A7R IV is a camera that does well for landscapes, but naff for human subjects... And if you dial it in for skintones, suddenly you have problems elsewhere, or it lacks impact.

The white balance system seems to use the sensor, it doesn't handle mixed light. If anyone can figure out how to stop it from making a 3200k lit interior look like Donald Trump's face when there is a 6500k laptop screen occupying 1/100th of the shot, please write the answer below.

[Super8]

10 hours ago, jagnje said:

Hahah, belive I'm no woried DP nor don't I see myself ever being fired or hired by a filmaker dad

I have seen bad bad bad footage from every kind of camera, it's not sony specific, and I have seen good footage from most. The thing is that people "need" the latitude to grade their own footage, when most don't have a clue what they're doing. Hell, most tutorials from the people that will make you think they're in the know how are bullshit. No amount od andrews magic plug and play luts will make your footage look good with a single click. It's like buying a pair of sneakers and trying to get to the olympics. 

Oh, and I don't have secrets, nor do I mind sharing anything. In fact, there are no secrets anymore, hell Roger Deakins will tell and show you how he goes about filming. 

You Tube is a gift and a curse for starting out camera Dads.

I have no problem with your take on camera Dad's or people having talent or not. That's your opinion and thanks for sharing it.  I would rather someone be brutally honest then not comment at all.

My problem with 'seasoned" DP's is the fact that they paid their dues and make a good living in the film industry, that's what we all want, but they do have a secret club attitude about helping other get into the business. I hope I'm wrong about this but I've seen it happen and been told "you have 4 referrals to join the union" but "don't join until you get on a film / show"

How do I get on a film / tv show? "You have to join the union."  It's also "who you know" and not just joining the union. 

I've done my own thing and do my own work and I like what I do. I also like learning a getting better at what I do.

 

 

[aaa123jc]

I think Sony has been improving on the color science quite a lot, but the white balance system is still far from accurate or pleasing. Even after doing an in-camera manual white balance, the white balance is often still a little off. And the problem worsens when in mixed lighting. 

[jagnje]

21 minutes ago, Super8 said:

You Tube is a gift and a curse for starting out camera Dads.

I have no problem with your take on camera Dad's or people having talent or not. That's your opinion and thanks for sharing it.  I would rather someone be brutally honest then not comment at all.

My problem with 'seasoned" DP's is the fact that they paid their dues and make a good living in the film industry, that's what we all want, but they do have a secret club attitude about helping other get into the business. I hope I'm wrong about this but I've seen it happen and been told "you have 4 referrals to join the union" but "don't join until you get on a film / show"

How do I get on a film / tv show? "You have to join the union."  It's also "who you know" and not just joining the union. 

I've done my own thing and do my own work and I like what I do. I also like learning a getting better at what I do.

 

 

Honestly, I did the whole series filming, being a work non stop guy, never made it big, maybe because here where I`m from there is no big. But honestly, during my fifth or so 3-4 month strech of pretty much living on set I decieded to quit. Seing that those sets consisted of 80% divorced people (on blow, just to get by) telling themselfs that this it what they always wanted...  I now edit 8h/day film when and what I want, earn about 1/2 of what I did, but being 5x as happy  

Anyway...a bit offtopic I guess  grading is hard yes, buy a Fuji, enyoi straight out of the camera  

[noone]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

The white balance system seems to use the sensor, it doesn't handle mixed light. If anyone can figure out how to stop it from making a 3200k lit interior look like Donald Trump's face when there is a 6500k laptop screen occupying 1/100th of the shot, please write the answer below.

Turn the laptop off?

I do think generally Sony colour is more accurate but i love the colour from my little point and shoot Canon (set to vivid) and it seems others like that colour too (I can get more likes on Instgram from the old P&S Canon with bright vivid colour than from a FF Sony with a decent lens).

Regards WB, I think  for video and Jpegs with Sony  just not relying on auto WB and setting what works by switching and looking (ignoring what the setting name is).     In some cases auto WB is just too red (A7s) and I was just experimenting with that.     I do have to remember to set the WB to incandescent for the streets at night here.   

 

I do use auto for pub gigs as the lighting varies so much and often is not static.

[Andrew Reid]

The laptop screen is just an example, I am talking about shooting in a room with mixed light sources. Sony can't handle it.

It is total shit.

8 years of fucking it up and still nobody fired.