Best MFT backup / second camera body

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, kye said:

The G6 is sounding like the winner so far.

What about the GH2?  It's in a similar price range.

The G6 has a little better sensor, has wifi, has 1080 60fps slow motion, and has focus peaking. Might be a few other things the G6 has over the GH2. Basically the G6 is an easy choice over the GH2!

The core benefits of the GH2 over the G6: live HDMI out, a hack available, and a MAR sensor. 

Not enough to sway me to recommend a GH2 over a G6

12 hours ago, kye said:

Don't need a mic input, and GX85 is much more expensive than I would want.

How about the Panasonic GX7? Is dirt cheap, you lose 4K, but you've still got IBIS (the first ever Panasonic with IBIS!) and is a nice solid semi pro rangefinder body. 

Also worth considering GM1 (ultra compact!), GX850, and GX1 (is dirt dirt cheap now! Been a long time since I owned one, but I remember liking it a lot back then).

 

6 hours ago, kye said:

So, why shouldn't I get the G5?  (or G4..  or G3...)

G4 doesn't exist. 
I find the quality gap between a G3 and a G6 to be too big to recommend the G3 at all. (not unless you're basically being given the G3)
 

 

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Well if it has to have focus peaking, you can rule out the GH2, so it's a choice between the G6 or the P2K.

Good point. When did Panasonic first bring out focus peaking?

I know the G6/GM1/GX7 have focus peaking. And the GH2, GH3, GX1, G5, and G3 don't have it. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

When did Panasonic first bring out focus peaking?

I know the G6/GM1/GX7 have focus peaking. And the GH2, GH3, GX1, G5, and G3 don't have it. 

I think the G6 was the first Panasonic to have focus peaking. Weirdly enough I forgot the GH3 existed until you mentioned it... LOL. Even weirder, I always liked the image from the GH3. That 90Mbps All-I looked great and it had a great build quality... I wonder how much they are selling for?

[IronFilm]

5 minutes ago, mercer said:

I wonder how much they are selling for?

The GH3 seems to be selling for similar or more than a G6, which makes the GH3 overpriced in my opinion unless you really want that live HDMI out / headphone out / weather proofed body. (which to be fair enough, are all legit reasons for some people)

 

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The GH3 seems to be selling for similar or more than a G6, which makes the GH3 overpriced in my opinion unless you really want that live HDMI out / headphone out / weather proofed body. (which to be fair enough, are all legit reasons for some people)

 

Yeah that's what I'm seeing too. Personally, I'd go with the GH3 over the G6. But I never found Panasonic's focus peaking to be all that great anyway, so it doesn't really matter if the GH3 has it or not.

On a side note...

Begin rant...

There was something special about these cameras and what people were using them for. Today, everything is about corporate videos, or content creation for YouTube or IG, back then it was about guys or gals with a camera and what they could shoot with them. People were pushing the boundaries with what the cameras had. Today, it's complaining about what the cameras don't have. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as guilty of it. But I miss the days when I was so excited to go and shoot with my eos-m or couldn't wait to see the release videos from the GH3.

I've been wanting a second camera for casual shooting for a while. I bought a BMMCC in the summer because I always regretted selling the first one I had. I paid $400 for it and $100 for the Ikan VL35 monitor. The problem with it is it isn't really good for casual shooting but for the price, it has the technical qualities and IQ to make a superb indie film with. Yet I still bitch that it isn't handheld enough, or the crop factor is annoying. I remember having a camcorder and I didn't care what the lens' focal length was... I just moved back or stepped closer if I needed to get the shot.

And I think that's what's cool about these older cameras, whether it's the BMPCC or the BMMCC, the GH2 or the GH3, the G6 or the G7... even if it's the t2i, they all have a unique look. They're not trying to be an Alexa... even if the Pocket has been called the Baby Alexa... they were just tools for filmmakers to tell their stories.

So with all that said, I think I'm going to revisit my BMMCC and if it is too much of a hassle, then maybe I'll look for a GH3 or maybe even a G85 and shoot in B&W so I don't have to mess around with WB. The point of these cameras are to have fun with them and push the boundaries of what you can do with them... for me... sometimes that's enough.

End rant.

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I remember having a camcorder and I didn't care what the lens' focal length was... I just moved back or stepped closer if I needed to get the shot.

I still think a lot of people might end up back there given the right option just to get back to the simplicity and actually make something.

I keep expecting Panasonic to do a refresh of the DVX200 with the GH5 internals as that might kickstart the move back but they're all about 1" sensors at that end now, although their AG-CX350 certainly doesn't skimp on the spec front.

 

[Andrew Reid]

If versatility or image quality is any kind of priority @kye then I say go with LX100 or GX85, they are a total bargain at today's prices.

I've even see GH4 as low as £300 in UK!

If you fancy spending even less, get hacked GH2? Or G6?

If you wanna spend more I think the G85 is a good option but not thaaaat different to GX85, just the form factor is really.

Somebody should take apart a BM Pocket original and put the innards in a GX85 with IBIS and tilt screen.

Hell... Put it in the LX100 with that lens!

Imagine if LX100 shot ProRes and RAW to SD card

[kye]

9 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Well I can do the fist two for you but not the GH5

The screen stays on so its basically marginal difference to running it for continuous video.

I've just done a 5 second of content time-lapse with a 4 second interval and it took 20% of the battery.

Because there is no power saving between shots, then changing that to an 8 second interval would have yielded more or less the same battery hit.

For me, having to go into the menu to change ISO and WB are the biggest grumbles operationally.

Yeah, ok, that's a pain.  My shooting ratios are pretty high, but my standby vs record time is absolutely huge, so that's a big deal.  I guess power management and low-power circuitry has come a long way in the interim.

The G6 is looking pretty good, but I'm still curious about the G5 and where it sits.  It's something like half the cost, and cheaper is definitely better, so that's appealing!

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

If you wanna spend more I think the G85 is a good option but not thaaaat different to GX85, just the form factor is really.

The only real difference I see between my G85 and GX85 is the IBIS, the G85's is better I assume because of the larger body and weight. Otherwise they're virtually identical. Best $250 I've spent! 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, kye said:

The G6 is looking pretty good, but I'm still curious about the G5 and where it sits.  It's something like half the cost, and cheaper is definitely better, so that's appealing!

Haven't used the G5 personally (but I own both the G3, that came just before it, and the G6), but my gut guess is that the image quality is going to be worse than  GH3 or at least no better than a GH3. As the G5 was released before the GH3

btw, I just noticed this when reading a review of the G6 vs the G5:
"...and now offers 1080p at 24p in addition to 50p or 60p depending on region." 

Hmmm.... that might be a big negative for you with the G5 if you want 24p.

Oh, and the G5 lacks a mic input. (not to mention all the other things the G5 misses vs the G6 that we've already mentioned: no WiFi, no NFC, no focus peaking, etc)
 

If you care about using the EVF, that was also a big upgrade from the G5 to the G6. (better LCD too)

Better autofucs too:

Quote

At first glance, the Lumix G6 appears to have inherited the AF system of its predecessor, with the same modes and options, but there’s two crucial differences: the G6 offers 240fps AF drive for quicker response, and perhaps more importantly it can autofocus down to -3EV compared to 0EV on the G5 and GH3. I confirmed the latter in practice, using AF on the G6 night-after-night for long exposures across various European cities including Bruges, Venice and Strasbourg. At no point in my tests, even under very low light conditions, did the G6 complain or make an error in focus; so long as it could find even an inkling of light and the subject had some contrast, it’d lock-onto it.

Prior to testing the G6 I’d shot extensively with the G3, G5 and GX1, and while all three were respectable when it came to focusing in low light, the G6 was a definite improvement. 

Another benefit of the G6 over the G5 (and even the GH3):

Quote

In a welcome, but necessary upgrade over the G5, the Lumix G6 gains a Movie Manual option on the mode dial, which lets you film in PASM modes, offering aperture, shutter or complete manual exposure control. You can also adjust the exposure while filming, and to avoid recording the sound of the control dial clicking, you can make the adjustments silently using on-screen sliders if preferred – literally a nice touch.

As before you can start and stop recording by pressing the dedicated red button near the shutter release. You can take photos while filming which share the same aspect ratio as the video, and with the choice of two quality options: if you don’t want the stills to interrupt the video, they can only be saved in a small size, but if you prefer a large version, it’ll temporarily blank the recording.

New to the Lumix G6 over the G5 and the GH3 is a Stop Motion mode, accessed through the main menus rather than the movie options. This can automatically assemble a movie from a sequence of still photos, either taken automatically by the camera at preset intervals, or manually as and when you’re ready. The auto mode is ideal for making time-lapse films, although the manual option allows you to create your own animated movies using drawings or models for example. Once you’ve finished capturing your photos, the camera can then encode them into an MP4 movie at your desired resolution and frame rate, although note it will inherit the original aspect ratio of the photos and won’t crop 4:3 to 16:9, so if you’re wanting a widescreen movie, don’t forget to set the photo aspect ratio to 16:9 first.

You mention you plan on using this camera a lot for time lapses, this alone might be a key reason you'll go for the G6.

 

In conclusion he says: 

Quote

Not only do these features make the G6 one of the most satisfying cameras in its class, but they also make it a genuine upgrade over the G5 despite arriving less than a year after it. The combination of a better viewfinder, crisper screen, faster focus in low light, wireless communications, auto-panoramas and far superior movie options make it a very tempting option for G5 owners, and especially those with earlier generations like the G3. Indeed the movie enhancements also make it a viable upgrade for GH2 owners and I’ve detailed the differences in the movie section in the main review page.

So in short I'd say there are a lot of reasons to choose a G6 over a G5, now not all of those reasons would be applicable for you, but I'm sure there must be at least a couple there which will make you justify the G6 being the right camera for you over the older G5. 

[kye]

Thanks @IronFilm that’s really helpful.  Definitely G6 over G5, despite the price difference.

I’ll have another look over the other options mentioned when I get home, but this has all been very helpful.  

Thanks all!

[mercer]

5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I still think a lot of people might end up back there given the right option just to get back to the simplicity and actually make something.

I keep expecting Panasonic to do a refresh of the DVX200 with the GH5 internals as that might kickstart the move back but they're all about 1" sensors at that end now, although their AG-CX350 certainly doesn't skimp on the spec front.

 

I was just looking at the DVX200 yesterday and was astonished by the price. Does Panasonic not believe in lowering their prices anymore? That camera is 4 years old. I guess they're still selling at that price.

I'd happily shoot on a camcorder if it gave me the specs I want... mostly ProRes or raw. The closest thing at this point is the FS5 with an external recorder. Does the Ninja V and ProRes Raw work with the FS5?

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

If versatility or image quality is any kind of priority @kye then I say go with LX100

Somebody should take apart a BM Pocket original and put the innards in a GX85 with IBIS and tilt screen.

I would love a G85 with the BMMCC internals + the G85's IBIS of course. It sounds like a job for @BTM_Pix

[IronFilm]

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

I was just looking at the DVX200 yesterday and was astonished by the price. Does Panasonic not believe in lowering their prices anymore? That camera is 4 years old. I guess they're still selling at that price.

Oh many companies keep their prices quite similar (or only modest reductions) over the lifespan of a product. 

If you really want to get a big shock, look at the price of a Sound Devices 552! Still available to buy brand new today from many stores, and listed by Sound Devices as a "current product":

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/650181-REG/Sound_Devices_552_552_Portable_5_Channel_Production.html

It's over three thousand dollars, and it was an amazing  machine for its time. (I've got one that I started out with)

But "that time" was OVER A DECADE AGO! 

Since then you've had Sound Devices 633 / 664 / Zaxcom Maxx / Nomad / etc all come out at similar prices! Which are all much much MUCH better recorders to choose instead. (not to mention the competitive pressures from the Sound Devices 688 / 788T / Sonosax SX-R4 / etc coming down on price on the secondhand market, you can get a secondhand 688 for only slightly more than a new 552!! And a 788T for nearing on half the price of a new 552. Plus of course the huge destructive wave of cheaper machines attacking from below with the Zoom F Series and Sound Devices MixPre series)

Yet the 552 remains for sale, but not discounted at all, not a penny. You'd have to be bonkers to buy a brand new 552 today in 2020. 

 

[IronFilm]

 

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

I'd happily shoot on a camcorder if it gave me the specs I want... mostly ProRes or raw. The closest thing at this point is the FS5 with an external recorder. Does the Ninja V and ProRes Raw work with the FS5?

 

You'd need to use the SDI output from the FS5 to get any sort of raw from the FS5. 

Wondered if the AtomX SDI module might allow the Ninja V to support this. 

Sadly the answer is no, if you read the reviews (which are SAVAGE!) on B&H of this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1471487-REG/atomos_atomxsdi01_atomx_sdi_module_for.html/reviews

Seems like it will never ever happen. 

My dream is that Atomos released a "Samurai V" which is identical to the Ninja V except with a SDI input to handle raw (just like how the Samurai Blade and Ninja Blade were identical to each other). 

This paired with Atomos AtomX Sync timecode module, with a Sony FS5 or FS700 would be my dream ultra low budget cinema camera setup. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1435435-REG/atomos_atomxsync1_modular_expansion_for_ninja.html

Nothing else could compete at this price point!

Not unless there was a major major disruptive change in the market place, such as the new Arri 4K S35 sensor this year causing the Arri Alexa Classic prices to fall down in price by over half. Or for Blackmagic to do a half price sale for the UMP like they did with the BMPCC. 

Or if a totally unexpected impossible firmware update happened, such as JVC LS300 or Canon C500mk1 getting 4K 60fps 10bit internal. 

[ShaunC]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:45 AM, mercer said:

Yeah that's what I'm seeing too. Personally, I'd go with the GH3 over the G6. But I never found Panasonic's focus peaking to be all that great anyway, so it doesn't really matter if the GH3 has it or not.

On a side note...

Begin rant...

There was something special about these cameras and what people were using them for. Today, everything is about corporate videos, or content creation for YouTube or IG, back then it was about guys or gals with a camera and what they could shoot with them. People were pushing the boundaries with what the cameras had. Today, it's complaining about what the cameras don't have. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as guilty of it. But I miss the days when I was so excited to go and shoot with my eos-m or couldn't wait to see the release videos from the GH3.

I've been wanting a second camera for casual shooting for a while. I bought a BMMCC in the summer because I always regretted selling the first one I had. I paid $400 for it and $100 for the Ikan VL35 monitor. The problem with it is it isn't really good for casual shooting but for the price, it has the technical qualities and IQ to make a superb indie film with. Yet I still bitch that it isn't handheld enough, or the crop factor is annoying. I remember having a camcorder and I didn't care what the lens' focal length was... I just moved back or stepped closer if I needed to get the shot.

And I think that's what's cool about these older cameras, whether it's the BMPCC or the BMMCC, the GH2 or the GH3, the G6 or the G7... even if it's the t2i, they all have a unique look. They're not trying to be an Alexa... even if the Pocket has been called the Baby Alexa... they were just tools for filmmakers to tell their stories.

So with all that said, I think I'm going to revisit my BMMCC and if it is too much of a hassle, then maybe I'll look for a GH3 or maybe even a G85 and shoot in B&W so I don't have to mess around with WB. The point of these cameras are to have fun with them and push the boundaries of what you can do with them... for me... sometimes that's enough.

End rant.

Yep, I've said it elsewhere in these forums, but I love my battered GH3. I shoot with a GH5 mostly now (and a GX85), but always keep the GH3 close. And yeah, there is something really appealing about its black and white.

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, mercer said:

I was just looking at the DVX200 yesterday and was astonished by the price. Does Panasonic not believe in lowering their prices anymore? That camera is 4 years old. I guess they're still selling at that price.

I'd happily shoot on a camcorder if it gave me the specs I want... mostly ProRes or raw. The closest thing at this point is the FS5 with an external recorder. Does the Ninja V and ProRes Raw work with the FS5?

Yeah, they are still around not far off £4K new and if it had the GH5 internals instead of the GH4 ones then it might have legs.

Maybe something might come up at NAB.

Ditto an SDI version of the Ninja V so people can start hoovering up all those used FS5s !

 

12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Somebody should take apart a BM Pocket original and put the innards in a GX85 with IBIS and tilt screen.

 

8 hours ago, mercer said:

I would love a G85 with the BMMCC internals + the G85's IBIS of course. It sounds like a job for @BTM_Pix

IBIS is bridge too far but, looking at this teardown, adding a tilt mechanism to a BMPCC screen is just a few FPC extension cables and a couple of 3D printed cover panels and hinges away.

 

[BTM_Pix]

19 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't think they have released a follow up to the DVX200 yet because the market it appeals to (ENG) moves a lot slower. A lot of local network affiliates are using the same cameras they got when they changed over to HD. They ride their equipment until the wheels fall off. The DVX200 also still exceeds the needs of a lot of ENG shooters, so it's not really out of date. 

The local CBS affiliate bought DVX200's and my buddy Michael loves it. 

I took the liberty of copying this from the A74S thread as I suspect you meant to put it here  ?

I do wonder whether, for all those reasons, they might never actually release a follow up to it.

The AG-CX350 likely offers more than enough image quality for that market and the direct streaming outputs (to NDI as well) make it more appropriate to today's news gathering usage for them too as does the lower cost.

[newfoundmass]

Doh, dunno how that happened lol

I don't think they have released a follow up to the DVX200 yet because the market it appeals to (ENG) moves a lot slower. A lot of local network affiliates are using the same cameras they got when they changed over to HD. They ride their equipment until the wheels fall off. The DVX200 also still exceeds the needs of a lot of ENG shooters, so it's not really out of date. 

The local CBS affiliate bought DVX200's and my buddy Michael loves it. 

[BTM_Pix]

20 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The local CBS affiliate bought DVX200's and my buddy Michael loves it. 

Was looking at reviews of the CX-350 earlier and found this....he hasn't traded it in for the CX-350 by any chance has he ?

Or maybe everyone called Michael has to have a DVX200