Camera company staff dramas on GlassDoor

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97337

Are the issues reported here acceptable for a new camera straight out of the packaging?

JWSound had the same thread last week, a guy asking why his Lectrosonics etc products were not perfectly immaculate straight out of the box?

This isn't unique to BMD

[leslie]

seriously guys, this is like a conspiracy theory sequel,  you guys just need to sign julia and mel  😉

from the photos, seems like someone got a lemon and understandably h'e'd be upset. Most of us would be upset too. Sadly life is not a box of chocolates, not all the time anyway. This is precisely why i bought new, so that i would be covered under warranty, that way, i was covered if anything did go pear shaped.  Really i cant say how many units bm have shipped around the world however i'd expect a very small percentage to have issues whether thats manufacturing, transit or something else. but the same could be said for any company. I think the facts bear this out we haven't seem a mass recall of p4k's or p6k's.  Certainly some people for whatever unexplicable reason got a defective unit. Sadly in this day and age after about 5 minutes to resolve the issue ( no pun intended ) its all dumped on the internet for the  consumption of the whole world. Which seems like to me at least more of an attempt to vilify rather than resolve an issue. I cant see how airing dirty laundry in the forum is productive at any level, bmd is not the empire striking back 🙄

it seems extremely optimistic that someone would buy a new model of camera then take it on a professional shoot days later. Nobody buys a rocket, lights that thing off and expects it to make it to the moon and back the first time 🙄 any piece of equipment needs a suitable time of testing and proving, regardless of what it does. If your doing something special with something brand new and said equipment fails, well i think you only have your self to blame.

I'm all for whistle blowers, their the last bastion against wrongdoing, be that at government or corporate level. But if two individuals having a bad day  they but heads, its going to get messy real fast regardless of  it being corporate or football,  add a bit of pride  and the situation is generally unrecoverable. Ultimately rightly or wrongly its the boss who pays the cheque so he gets the last say. Not sure we need a royal inquisition to sort everything out all of the time. Unless you could prove bmd are using a child labour slave force i don't think its any of our business. what goes on.

mercer i cant say i agree with you about bm cutting corners. I haven't owned any earlier bmd cameras. For me i can hold the p4k in one hand and a canon and a number of older but still usable still cameras in the other. it looks and feels like any of the other plastic housed cameras that i own, it seems solid enough after 8 months or so it hasn't fallen apart, the pcb hasn't fallen out neither has the battery door been an issue. sure it would be nice to say that the frame was magnesium and all that crap but that may have put it out of my range perhaps.

Personally i cared abit about the image, there was enough evidence from previous bmd cameras for me to justify lashing out on a new p4k. I figure bmd is australian, i'm australian, i should be a little bit patriotic.🏳️ with a p4k i should future proof myself for  little while. Anyone that denigrates the original image from the pocket has to be an idiot. I suspect that some people have a need to feel special or privileged perhaps, any thing that impacts on that aura tends to get denigrated pretty quickly. There are many cinema cameras out there that give a great image, it really shouldn't matter what one chooses to work with. I chose the p4k others may opt for an arri or something else its their choice.

i''m kinda blunt at times i may or may not of inadvertently trod on some toes if i have offended you thats too bad, but feel free to downvote me  😀     if i appear like a bmd fanboy so be it, btw i'll get my own box of chocolates😉

[anonim]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It looks refreshing language to me, but I don't quite understand - is that a way that you feel BM treat you personally, or just, say, all range of your suggestions for better acquisition?

[Andrew Reid]

7 hours ago, leslie said:

Really i cant say how many units bm have shipped around the world however i'd expect a very small percentage to have issues whether thats manufacturing, transit or something else. but the same could be said for any company.

Not sure if you noticed yet. I review cameras. I've had a lot of cameras. Every Blackmagic I've ever bought had debris on the sensor and imperfect, unclean cosmetically, or worse... All new, out of the box. Should have kept it all a secret and been a Blackmagic apologist like everybody else....... for all the trouble it has caused me..... but I have a camera review site, and so it does in fact fall to me to mention it, weird as that may seem.

7 hours ago, leslie said:

I cant see how airing dirty laundry in the forum is productive at any level, bmd is not the empire striking back 🙄

It's very productive indeed. Some poor sucker can avoid buying one and encountering the same problems I did.

The condition of the cameras out of the shrink wrap has always bothered me and they have had years to improve the situation.

I find it insulting as a customer to receive a brand new camera in a used looking state.

I am not being pedantic about it.

I have not once - in 10 years - had a camera from a Japanese company in anything less than pristine new state new out of the box.

The problem is unique to Blackmagic and not a small percentage of shipments.

They are cutting corners.

It's up to you if it bothers you enough to put you off the company.

Most just polish the sensor, dust off the body and go about using the damn thing. Which is what I did.

Which brings me to your next point...

7 hours ago, leslie said:

it seems extremely optimistic that someone would buy a new model of camera then take it on a professional shoot days later.

A few days before I was due to go to Italy, thanks to a tip off on Twitter I had the rare chance to get a P6K in Europe, at a Netherlands dealer called CameraTools, during the time they were all out of stock or unavailable, as per fucking usual with Blackmagic.

A chance to grab some great footage and do a review of the Pocket 6K in the field.

I don't even know why I have to justify any of this to you, it feels a bit silly, like explaining an egg to a duck.

7 hours ago, leslie said:

If your doing something special with something brand new and said equipment fails, well i think you only have your self to blame.

Ah so it's my fault. That's what Blackmagic's head of PR said as well.

Well you can both fuck off because you're wrong.

Brand new professional cameras are ready for pro work, that is why people buy professional cameras at high prices. The Pocket 6K is nearly $3000. It's a professional camera.

The Canon 1D X Mark II is also a professional camera. It does not fail at 50% battery or throw a paddy after every shot with a blank screen like my P6K did.

The Panasonic S1H does not let you down... X-T3... And so on...

Yet it's ok for a Blackmagic to let you down.... because people see them as the messiah!

They are not the messiah. They are arseholes.

7 hours ago, leslie said:

mercer i cant say i agree with you about bm cutting corners. I haven't owned any earlier bmd cameras.

Explains a lot.

You have zero knowledge but of course can't agree with someone who does.

We see this a lot in people today and their non-evidence based opinions.

Maybe you can enlighten us from your stack of zero knowledge, on what basis you disagree with the guy with the knowledge.

Is it the fact your circuit board hasn't fallen out of the battery door yet?

If it does, you'll probably still be singing its praises and hiding the dirty laundry from forums.

7 hours ago, leslie said:

Personally i cared abit about the image, there was enough evidence from previous bmd cameras for me to justify lashing out on a new p4k. I figure bmd is australian, i'm australian, i should be a little bit patriotic.🏳️

LOL!

7 hours ago, leslie said:

Anyone that denigrates the original image from the pocket has to be an idiot.

LOL!

7 hours ago, leslie said:

I suspect that some people have a need to feel special or privileged perhaps, any thing that impacts on that aura tends to get denigrated pretty quickly. There are many cinema cameras out there that give a great image, it really shouldn't matter what one chooses to work with. I chose the p4k others may opt for an arri or something else its their choice.

[IronFilm]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Brand new professional cameras are ready for pro work, that is why people buy professional cameras at high prices.

Heh, in my world of Sound Devices and Zaxcom (the two biggest players when it comes to professional recorders) they both have a track record of sometimes releasing products at launch which are not quite ready for prime time...  !

And camera brands are not immune to this either, look for instance at Sony with their mirrorless cameras which would at whim randomly overheat on you all the time. (even their latest models still sometimes suffer from this)

Heck, even their most expensive professional camera, the Sony VENICE had many teething issues at launch!

Not even the mighty ARRI themselves are immune to fundamental troubles at launch. (for one example, their AMIRA couldn't take TC!! wtf, how on earth did they screw up something so straight forward and essential???? Good grief)
 

[IronFilm]

24 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Panasonic S1H does not let you down... X-T3... And so on...

I would however buy a S1H or a "X-T4" over a BMPCC6K, but that is because I think its price is overflated (it is squeezed by the S1H just above it, or the "X-T4" below it) and I don't want either the EF mount or 6K

[barefoot_dp]

54 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Brand new professional cameras are ready for pro work, that is why people buy professional cameras at high prices. The Pocket 6K is nearly $3000. It's a professional camera.

Just thought I'd point out that one of the many reasons that major productions prefer to rent cameras rather than buy/own is that the rental house has already tested/updated/cleaned the camera and made sure it is reliable and ready for use.

They understand that with any camera (and even more so with high end gear like a Red or Arri), it is unwise to expect it to work straight out of the box on day one.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, barefoot_dp said:

Just thought I'd point out that one of the many reasons that major productions prefer to rent cameras rather than buy/own is that the rental house has already tested/updated/cleaned the camera and made sure it is reliable and ready for use.

Arguably I'd say owner op gear is a better choice, as they know it better and look after it better. 

However going the path of rentals does kinda CYA ("cover your ass"), giving you a scapegoat to point your finger at if something goes wrong. 

[eleison]

Things that I learned in this thread.  Blackmagic needs to treat Andrew better and send him a free, pristine, flawlessly built camera (ursa/pocket/etc.)  because there is much hate in him towards BMD even though both are catering to the same gear heads.

[Emanuel]

BMD communication is a TOTAL failure. It is what it is. If I'd have a gross amount of my money in the company, I'd be really pissed off not without reason.

On the other hand:

 

[leslie]

My singular experience with the p4k has been positive so far, i see no reason why that will change. I assume its a modern camera, made in a modern factory with Modern techniques. After pre ordering then waiting 4-5 months i am pretty confident it took about 90 seconds to unbox which might be some kind of record. I tossed the shrink wrap but still have the box and everything else. Cant say that the box or packaging is any better or worse than any other camera i have bought japanese or not. The main thing you can derive from all of this, is mine arrived with out blemish.

i should clarify that my initial statement probably came across as a little truncated. Your right i have no exp with prior bmd cameras.  Yes you have all the camera experience and then some.

I just picked up my p4k with the speedbooster and tokina 28-70 the support rails and tripod clamp still attached. I literally held it by the lens only and gave it a good shake nothing rattled, squeaked  or moved. its solidly constructed.

i have helped set up and run, quarter of a million dollars cnc stone and glass machines, yes their definitely not cameras. one point i'll reiterate is, machines need to be setup and tested before someone can sign off and say its good to go. The principle is applicable to all machines no matter what the size. The other thing i would add is i can run a cnc stone machine with tolerances of 0.1mm all day long. On a good day i can run it at 0.05mm  thats stone. I would expect modern cnc injection molding machines and  cnc milling machines to match or exceed those tolerances. What all that leads to is the p4k may not be waterproof, however it is as tight as a drum, well my copy is anyway.

I have 3 cameras, two different brands made in japan and i agree with you, the japanese do seem to produce a nice product. I actually prefer to buy my second hand lenses from japan, the lenses are as described, probably cleaner than a hospital room, have a hand written note and sometimes a little origami thing. Thats a level of service you don't get anywhere else.

getting a little late here.  Glad i could make you laugh earlier, thanks for the back story some detail is always good. catch you tomorrow for round two

[anonim]

1 hour ago, eleison said:

Things that I learned in this thread.  Blackmagic needs to treat Andrew better and send him a free, pristine, flawlessly built camera (ursa/pocket/etc.)  because there is much hate in him towards BMD even though both are catering to the same gear heads.

I thought something similar, but in a meanwhile I learned that them (BM) are arseholes, and those who don't see them exactly as such, must see them (BM) as the messiah.

 

[Jrsisson]

Andrew

How long did you have the camera before returning it?

[Emanuel]

Different people have different experiences with. So is life. I just think their arrogance might be addressed and Andrew has no saved mince words about that either. The point is he has a point. Seems they haven't fixed it yet unfortunately. Let's hope that will change.

I believe this company has delivered to fulfill what RED has struggled to be.

To respond Glenn @mercer, it is natural we see lots of BMD users here. This company could be born in these pages. The best accessories from third parties (@BTM_Pix stuff) have been developed in such boards.

As BMD supporter from minute one, a few film projects among them features distributed worldwide and another amount of players in this industry have been using their product to follow my suggestion for some years today, I expect that from their end.

[eleison]

32 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Different people have different experiences with. So is life. I just think their arrogance might be addressed and Andrew has no saved mince words about that either.

BMD don't make enough margin on their products.  They are selling the best value possible because they are a small company - that is their competitive advantage.  They are eschewing support, and a little quality control.  If they included good support like Apple products, we would be paying Apple prices.  Name another camera that is better than the pocket 4k for the price.  There isn't one.  Especially if you consider they are giving resolve for free.  

If you want good support buy a +$10K canon cinema camera or a +$10K FS9.  In addition to good support, you get good auto focusing.  Most people (and there are a lot of them) understands this and they live within the limitation.  

[Emanuel]

21 minutes ago, eleison said:

Name another camera that is better than the pocket 4k for the price.  There isn't one.

True.

 

But I can name another attitude that is better than the arrogance (let's not confound with pride) for the time being and to come.

There is one or a couple of them: humbleness and spirit of service, top professionalism. Communication is included there.

Let alone fairness, recognition, brains, guts; also made it after all.

 

No budget or margin in the world are able to beat and give you or to anyone that (E ; -)

[SteveV4D]

Whilst bashing BMD seems to be the main ingredient of this thread, I should counter that I've owned 2 Pocket 4Ks and they have both been free of faults, dust on sensor and any imperfections or marks on the body.  I've also having met some BMD staff found them polite and open to dialogue.  

We have enjoyed numerous updates for the Pocket 4K.  Not paid updates like Panasonic have recently introduced, but free updates that have added BRAW, new functions and recording resolutions, plus fixes that have addressed issues raised by customers.  Which at least proves they do listen to customers.

However they may run their Business and frankly their reviews whilst bad, show no difference to any other company I have worked for or dealt with, they did release a camera that has given internal RAW at a remarkable cheap price, along with a superb editing software for free.  A software that comes with free updates.  Unlike Adobe, which makes you pay a subscription to use their software.

Where is the Sony camera offering 60p internal RAW, or Panasonic or even Fuji. Which DSLR or Mirrorless offers Professional functions like ProRes recording, punch in focus during recording, SSD recording, with a price tag at this point.  

I'm not denying there are other great cameras out there, but whilst some can speak differently,  there are also many owners of the Pocket 4K and 6K, who don't have an issue with either the form factor of the camera or their communication with the company.

 

[Emanuel]

As said, different experiences from different approaches... Now go there trying to let them be as open as you describe if they dream : D you'll be able to take any advantage from their business ; ) you wouldn't be here to write the same. I can assure you that! ; -)

Some people also love to complain against RED but try to compare both of them and it is Apples to Oranges... Not one-sided angle either. Speaks a decade and a half of continuous feedback, no more no less : -)

 

A few people have a problem when they face criticism or productive will to improve eventual shortcomings. Nobody's perfect except my dad.

[SteveV4D]

I don't feel BMD is perfect... what company is.  Perhaps they're guilty of having bitten off more than they can chew.  A small company trying to over reach themselves in delivery; but they've at least delivered a product that has made a mark on the video industry.  One only has to look at how many have viewed and replied to the Pocket 4K thread on this forum to see that.  

For all its faults, there are plenty of people using this camera and using it very well. 

[Emanuel]

17 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I don't feel BMD is perfect... what company is.  Perhaps they're guilty of having bitten off more than they can chew.  A small company trying to over reach themselves in delivery; but they've at least delivered a product that has made a mark on the video industry.  One only has to look at how many have viewed and replied to the Pocket 4K thread on this forum to see that.  

For all its faults, there are plenty of people using this camera and using it very well. 

I fully agree with you on that one. Reason why I try to bring here a balanced perspective and to not mislead the truth. There are several angles which deserve a place by their own.

I myself have seen so many times my own enthusiasm or criticism, when due, to be misinterpreted.

E : -)