There is no such thing as peak camera!

[Andrew Reid]

Interesting...

Of course, Innovative products turn into mature ones... But then this ignores all the fringe stuff and steady evolution going on.

One day the mould will be broken again.

The amazing things about mirrorless cameras is that they are still taking leaps in a very mature market.

They are all so different.

[kye]

Absolutely.  The camera market is still moving quickly.  We only have to look at:

• RAW availability coming down in price
• Resolutions steadily increasing (which has advantages beyond IQ, such as over capture)
• 360 cameras becoming feasible for over capture
• etc..

..and all of these are only to create 2D media.  3D formats are gradually getting more standardised and available and there will come a time when the interface to everyones smartphone will be a wearable augmented reality setup.  It's not close, and it won't look like google glasses (thank goodness!), but it will come, and people will take it up because it will be fundamentally more useful than having your window to the online world limited to the size of a letterbox and stuck to a shiny brick in your pocket.

I think such a thing as peak camera does exist, but we're probably a century away from "the 5000MP RAW AI processed 180 degree wide-band vision capture from every nano-wearable is good enough for anything that anyone wants to do - we've hit peak optic".

[IronFilm]

If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago. 

For most buyers a Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs. 

[Mokara]

We are still far from that. The limitations on modern cameras are primarily imposed by the processing power available, and that should continue to improve in the foreseeable future.  

19 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago. 

For most buyers a Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs. 

For DSLRs sure, they have gone about as far as they can go, but MILCs can go much further than that (which is why DSLRs are fast fading into the sunset at the moment).

[mkabi]

53 minutes ago, Mokara said:

We are still far from that. The limitations on modern cameras are primarily imposed by the processing power available, and that should continue to improve in the foreseeable future.  

For DSLRs sure, they have gone about as far as they can go, but MILCs can go much further than that (which is why DSLRs are fast fading into the sunset at the moment).

Wow... talk about misunderstandings.

IronFilm is not talking about the technology and limitations of DSLR or MILCs... he is talking about the “people” behind the camera... the “buyers” needs, wants and limitation from a filmmakers point of view, the artistic limitations, their limitations with regards to editing and showcasing it.

From that standpoint, “Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs.“

[Andrew Reid]

23 hours ago, kye said:

Absolutely.  The camera market is still moving quickly.  We only have to look at:

• RAW availability coming down in price
• Resolutions steadily increasing (which has advantages beyond IQ, such as over capture)
• 360 cameras becoming feasible for over capture
• etc..

..and all of these are only to create 2D media.  3D formats are gradually getting more standardised and available and there will come a time when the interface to everyones smartphone will be a wearable augmented reality setup.  It's not close, and it won't look like google glasses (thank goodness!), but it will come, and people will take it up because it will be fundamentally more useful than having your window to the online world limited to the size of a letterbox and stuck to a shiny brick in your pocket.

I think such a thing as peak camera does exist, but we're probably a century away from "the 5000MP RAW AI processed 180 degree wide-band vision capture from every nano-wearable is good enough for anything that anyone wants to do - we've hit peak optic".

Yes a lot to look forward to... Top of my list would be:

• Better RAW codecs, all internal, smaller file sizes
• GFX 100 specs coming down to a lower priced Fuji medium format camera
• Fuji digital cinema camera
• Sony Venice colour science... in an A7?
• Canon catching up with Sony and Panasonic on specs with R5
• X-T4
• ProRes in more cameras (or will hell freeze over first?!)

[kye]

22 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago. 

For most buyers a Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs. 

I disagree.

When was the last time you spoke to someone wanting to get their first "real camera"?

This keeps changing over time, but my experience out here in the suburbs is that people want to get their first real camera when they have their first kid.  Having kids is the most significant life event for most people and increasingly we want to share nice photos with distant friends and family.  Now, we all know that baby pics are easy - babies can sleep through a tornado once they're out (or the phrase "sleep like a baby" wouldn't mean anything..) so you can slowly take photos of a motionless well-lit infant.  Unless you're arty, you take them looking down, so no messy backgrounds to contend with either.

and then they learn to walk, and then run.

Now, you're trying to take photos of a fast-moving target, often in interior lighting, and often with the messiness of a kid-trashed house in the background.

The most common reason people have asked me about buying a camera is that the $100 P&S (or now their phone) can't keep up "the photos are blurry, or out of focus, and the background is all messy".  I've had parents ask me about cameras that can take "a lot of photos at once" and then they can choose the best one.

In reality, my first DSLR = my first high-end sports camera.

The Canon entry-level camera will only meet this requirement when it's exceeded the specs of the 1DXmk3.

24 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes a lot to look forward to... Top of my list would be:

• Better RAW codecs, all internal, smaller file sizes
• GFX 100 specs coming down to a lower priced Fuji medium format camera
• Fuji digital cinema camera
• Sony Venice colour science... in an A7?
• Canon catching up with Sony and Panasonic on specs with R5
• X-T4
• ProRes in more cameras (or will hell freeze over first?!)

Prores in more cameras is in licensing territory isn't it?  

In which case, as consumers, typically we lose.  Beta vs VHS, BluRay vs HDDVD, SACD vs DVD-Audio......  

[Mokara]

12 hours ago, mkabi said:

Wow... talk about misunderstandings.

IronFilm is not talking about the technology and limitations of DSLR or MILCs... he is talking about the “people” behind the camera... the “buyers” needs, wants and limitation from a filmmakers point of view, the artistic limitations, their limitations with regards to editing and showcasing it.

From that standpoint, “Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs.“

Heh...you are the one with misunderstanding. Read the first sentence of his post dude.

I was obviously responding to his first sentence, not the second. Comprehension.

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, mkabi said:

Wow... talk about misunderstandings.

IronFilm is not talking about the technology and limitations of DSLR or MILCs... he is talking about the “people” behind the camera... the “buyers” needs, wants and limitation from a filmmakers point of view, the artistic limitations, their limitations with regards to editing and showcasing it.

From that standpoint, “Canon 5Dmk2 / Nikon D7100 / etc (zillions of older cameras out there!) are plenty overkill for their stills needs.“

Even fairly casual or semi serious filmmakers can want to have:
Waveforms
Ability to apply LUTs to some outputs (on which point... which are there NO mirrorless/DSLR cameras with more than one output? I'd love to see one which gives us both SDI and HDMI at once, or even DIN instead of SDI. Or heck, HDMI + Mini HDMI! The likes of the Panasonic S1H I think should have been the first to have had this, it is more than bulky enough already it could have been included!)
TC I/O
Raw/10bit + proxy recordings at once. 
Punch to zoom while recording. 
Purpose built Audio Accessories (such as the DMW-XLR1)
IBIS
Built in NDs
No major flaws (such as no autofocus while in 4K mode, or a massive crop if in 4K, or overheating, or.... so many ways we've experienced crippling/"gotchas"! Especially from Canon)
No record limits
Etc etc etc... (note, I haven't even touched image quality yet! I'm inclined to think it is "good enough" in many instances such as the X-T3/GH5S/Z6/etc)

Now some cameras have a few of these items ticked off, but none of them hits all the check boxes! Heck, they can't even do most of them. (although the GH5/GH5S is notable in managing to hit up half of these points, a reason why the GH5 can still be a top dog choice for mirrorless even in 2020 years after its release)

While for the casual photographer, the likes of a Nikon D750 / D500 / D810 (or Canon etc equivalent) is usually plenty overkill for their needs! As if you wrote up a similar wish list for the casual photographer, then most cameras on the market can hit many of those points already. 

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, kye said:

In reality, my first DSLR = my first high-end sports camera.

They don't need a Nikon D6!

Any of the current lower end Nikon D780 / D500 / D7500 could meet their needs just fine with the right lenses. (which is usually where newbie people get unstuck.... both in the stills and in the film world!)

 

[mkabi]

On 2/12/2020 at 4:39 AM, Mokara said:

Heh...you are the one with misunderstanding. Read the first sentence of his post dude.

I was obviously responding to his first sentence, not the second. Comprehension.

We can break down the first sentence too, if you want... cause the second is connected to the first and I am even bold enough to say its an elaboration of the first.

So the first sentence says "If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago."

In my opinion, the keyword here is "you" as in the person using the camera.

My translation of that sentence is that 'if the person behind the camera doesn't care about filmmaking, then the 5D mark 2 from 2008 is plenty camera for them." 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, mkabi said:

We can break down the first sentence too, if you want... cause the second is connected to the first and I am even bold enough to say its an elaboration of the first.

So the first sentence says "If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago."

In my opinion, the keyword here is "you" as in the person using the camera.

I'm amazed people are analyzing the details of my wording so carefully! Ha
Getting into the nitty gritty of arguing 

 

9 hours ago, mkabi said:

My translation of that sentence is that 'if the person behind the camera doesn't care about filmmaking, then the 5D mark 2 from 2008 is plenty camera for them." 

You are right

People used to be very hyped about the release of each new DSLR, as it meant such a huge leap forward for them. 

Like we are when the GH3 to GH4, then the GH5 etc (hopefully soon GH6!) came along. 

As each step along the way was a BIG LEAP, made a big difference even for very casual users. 

Those big leap forwards stopped a few years ago for casual stills photographers. 

Yes, each new release is still an improvement, but no longer are they BIG step forwards. 

Plenty of 5Dmk3 (heck, even mk2) owners were happy to stay put rather than "upgrade" to a 5Dmk4

You can look at other tiers of cameras, from other brands too, say a semi pro APS-C from Nikon: look at the improvements (ignoring video) from D7100 to D7200 to D7500? Not anything that makes the casual photographer say they MUST upgrade 

Yet in video, almost any brand (even those who are dragging their feet, such as Canon, or who were totally AWOL initially such as Fuji, or who started then stopped only to start again such as Nikon) if you look at them over three whole generations of cameras it is easy for even a casual consumer to see reasons why they might say to themselves I must upgrade. 

What  videographers don't very very much so want to go from a X-T1 to a X-T3? Or a GH3 to a GH5? D7100 to a D7500? Or a 5Dmk2 to a 5Dmk4?

Yet there are shockingly many people who are just casual photographers and would feel "meh" about that upgrade (X-T1 > X-T3, D7100 > D7500, etc). Yes, they'd like that upgrade if it you gave it to them, but they won't spend their hard cold cash on it. 

[Mokara]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:44 PM, mkabi said:

We can break down the first sentence too, if you want... cause the second is connected to the first and I am even bold enough to say its an elaboration of the first.

So the first sentence says "If you don't care about filmmaking, then "peak camera" hit for DSLRs years ago."

In my opinion, the keyword here is "you" as in the person using the camera.

My translation of that sentence is that 'if the person behind the camera doesn't care about filmmaking, then the 5D mark 2 from 2008 is plenty camera for them." 

And did you read my response to that? Apparently not. I guess your knee jerked into your face so fast you were not able to, lol.

"For DSLRs sure, they have gone about as far as they can go, but MILCs can go much further than that (which is why DSLRs are fast fading into the sunset at the moment)."

I was agreeing with him ffs and then extrapolating to the future. As I said before, comprehension is lacking on your side.

It is it really necessary for you guys to contest every and anything I say, no matter what it is?

[mkabi]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

And did you read my response to that? Apparently not. I guess your knee jerked into your face so fast you were not able to, lol.

"For DSLRs sure, they have gone about as far as they can go, but MILCs can go much further than that (which is why DSLRs are fast fading into the sunset at the moment)."

I was agreeing with him ffs and then extrapolating to the future. As I said before, comprehension is lacking on your side.

It is it really necessary for you guys to contest every and anything I say, no matter what it is?

You are still talking about the technology... unless you are telling me that MILCs can magically transform the person behind the camera into Roger Deakins.