Michael Steiner Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, OliKMIA said: I also see the track record of this company and the physical reality of 8K. What is the physical reality of 8k? Consider there‘s now a Samsung Smartphone shooting 8k and working Sharp prototypes with 8k MFT-sensors. Both (I assume) with smaller form factors than the R5. There probably will be a limit for 8k recording: 30min best case, maybe less, if we look at the 1DX3. A crop is not really possible since there aren’t many (if any) pixels left to leave out. The way Canon promoted this Camera only months after the 1DX3 anouncement is a clear indication for more than a „sticker on the box“ feature. Nonetheless: those hoping for 8k RAW/ProRes will have to prepare for disapointment. Maybe 10bit with H.265 compression but I‘m not betting any money on that. C-Log is a given. The deciding question for me: what will the 8k feature mean for the 4k modes...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Hummus Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 @Andrew Reid with all the rumors and hype I say you start a betting system. People can put money down on the “rumored” features. Higher payout for rumors more unlikely (like 4K120p). You take a small percentage commission on all the bets. You make more money than YouTube AdSense ever would make you. 🤣 Proceeds go to buying the camera on release for an in-depth review. Andrew Reid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, Michi said: What is the physical reality of 8k? Consider there‘s now a Samsung Smartphone shooting 8k and working Sharp prototypes with 8k MFT-sensors. Both (I assume) with smaller form factors than the R5. There probably will be a limit for 8k recording: 30min best case, maybe less, if we look at the 1DX3. A crop is not really possible since there aren’t many (if any) pixels left to leave out. The way Canon promoted this Camera only months after the 1DX3 anouncement is a clear indication for more than a „sticker on the box“ feature. Nonetheless: those hoping for 8k RAW/ProRes will have to prepare for disapointment. Maybe 10bit with H.265 compression but I‘m not betting any money on that. C-Log is a given. The deciding question for me: what will the 8k feature mean for the 4k modes...? Doing 8K on FF or small sensor is a whole different story in term of thermal dissipation. Heat is the physical limit at the moment with the current technology (CPU, memory, etc.). See the fan on the SH1 and most pro camera. Agree with the crop, 8k video shouldn't crop much unless they go way beyond the "native" 8k resolution (need a minimum of 40mpx fora 3:2 ratio sensor to output 16/9 8k). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew19 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 It's possible that straight off the sensor 8k recording is less heat-generating than 2X oversampled 4k recording. My iMac Pro can spit out a 4k Prores file from 4k footage quicker and with less heat than it can a1080p h264 file from the same footage. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Man lots of naysayers. Check the 1dx3, Canon has the tech and it’ll be paired with a 40-something MP sensor with IBIS. They just leapfrogged the entire industry. Yes there will be some gotchas, but the 1dx is pretty damn impressive. Their aps-c sensor is 32.5mp, that translates to a FF sensor well over 70mp, if my math is correct they’re about to do it again with the upcoming high res body. From zero to hero in less than two years since the R was introduced. Amazing. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Steiner Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 22 minutes ago, OliKMIA said: Doing 8K on FF or small sensor is a whole different story in term of thermal dissipation. Heat is the physical limit at the moment with the current technology (CPU, memory, etc.). See the fan on the SH1 and most pro camera. Agree with the crop, 8k video shouldn't crop much unless they go way beyond the "native" 8k resolution (need a minimum of 40mpx fora 3:2 ratio sensor to output 16/9 8k). So then it‘s a question of heat generated by the sensor? Don‘t get my wrong, I‘m no engineer, but it does‘t seem logic that a processor has more work to do when processing information from a bigger sensor compared to a smaller one. 32mp is 32mp... is it not? I don‘t know about the S1H but on the C200 the fan does only start after 25 or so minutes of recording. And it has two processors inside... With the R5 having a newer processor and probably a recording limit, 8k does not seem entierly impossible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Random guesses taking the 1Dx III tech on a R5: data flow for 5.5k 60fps is similar to 8k 30 fps so in theory with CFexpress it could do it in RAW. Not sure what is more limiting for DPAF the data volume or the frame rate.... so not sure it will have DPAF in 8k. 5.5k 60fps is super sampled to 4k 60fps, so again it would be possible to take 8k 30fps and supersampled to 4k 30fps h265 10bit Clog but again would it have DPAF? Now FF 4k 60fps super sampled is probably unrealistic. Probably a 1:1 crop maybe with DPAF 4k 120fps IMO only possible either line skipping or 1:1 crop. Best case by guessing: 8k 30fps RAW at same data rate that the 5.5k RAW 60 fps of the 1Dx III but with DPAF FF supersampled 4k 30fps 10 bit h265 CLog with DPAF 4k 60fps or maybe even 120fps 1:1 pixel so 2x crop. 60fps with DPAF Let see how far they are pushing it..... maybe a big disappointment or maybe another all in like the 1Dx III..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, Michi said: So then it‘s a question of heat generated by the sensor? Don‘t get my wrong, I‘m no engineer, but it does‘t seem logic that a processor has more work to do when processing information from a bigger sensor compared to a smaller one. 32mp is 32mp... is it not? I don‘t know about the S1H but on the C200 the fan does only start after 25 or so minutes of recording. And it has two processors inside... With the R5 having a newer processor and probably a recording limit, 8k does not seem entierly impossible... Correct, mostly a sensor issue even though processor plays a role but 8k is similar to manage whether it comes from tiny or large sensor. Now, I don't have any info and I'm just going to wait like everybody else. Hoping for the best, I'm still deeply invested in the Canon ecosystem so it would be a real win for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsoandrew Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 22 hours ago, Trankilstef said: The 8k feature might just be a burst ofna few seconds where you can extract stills or shoot an 8k material then processed into 4k video file as it implies in this screenshot I made from one of the press release. Do we understand the same thing? If you read this statement glass half full sounds like 8K RAW is likely (may or may not be limited), with Canon's imagined use case is either an amazing burst mode of 20+ fps and a Olympus/Panasonic mode thats always taking photos and lets you select the best one after the fact. Or down sampling to 4k 4:4:4. Also Sony isn't exactly pulling a Canon. From a resources management standpoint it doesn't make that much sense to spend money on their imaging department when they make so much money from their sensor department and supply everyone elses sensors anyways (except Canon). UNlike Canon who stagnated because of overconfidence and cockiness, and probably the sweet bonuses that the executives could write themselves from money saved on R&D (or lack thereof). Although I hink the trigger for Sony to step up will be the same as Canon's, declining sales of their cameras and lenses as a whole. At that point its too much money lost to ignore. Mako Sports 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotheus Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Matt Granger is here to shit on your dreams lol Recent Canon history certainly is on the side of his analysis. Cripple Hammer represent! We shall see in a few weeks time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted February 14, 2020 Matt Granger is a Sony shill and he looks like he's shit himself. Not even sprinkling porno into his videos will save him now. He's headed for the dustbin of irrelevance along with his A7 III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted February 14, 2020 I've spent weeks wracking my brain on how Matt Granger made it to 661,000 subscribers And I just can't possibly figure it out. But it has happened and Matt is one of THE authorities on cameras. Although sometimes he gets confused about the concept of a mirrorless camera. "It shoots up to approximately 20fps with the mirror up" THIS explains everything, including why I always had problems with that imaginary mirror in my GH5, it always seems to stay up out of the way and never make that satisfying flippy flippy sound. Then it REALLY got me fhinking... why is it called a mirrorless? The world is a really weird place, very confusing. So I often turn to YouTube for the sheer quality of talent on there and the expertise to enlighten me in dark times... With the gift of knowledge. In fact I envy the man. He is one of the biggest and best commentators along with the Northrup's and their whiteboard. Who can say they don't deserve it.... The 5 minutes he spends quibbling over the difference between 19.1fps and 20fps is pure entertainment. I have subscribed and smashed the notifications button. Mark Romero 2, Django, tweak and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Total click-bait for sure.. I love how he states to never believe rumors, only to proceed to full speculation moments later! he does raise a somewhat semi-valid suspicion I guess about the possibility of MJPEG for 8K: From a video perspective, the camera’s 8K video capture capability will prepare videographers for the future of movie-making- capturing 8K footage today allows for even higher-quality 4K productions in addition to the ability to extract high-resolution still images from the video footage. To my knowledge only the 1DX2 & 5D4 had a stills extract from video feature and both those cams used MJPEG. The thought alone of that codec returning gives me the shivers and it would be plain silly for Canon to place such an inefficient codec for such high resolution video files. But who knows.. when Canon introduced 4K on the 1DC it did have that one caveat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, Django said: Total click-bait for sure.. I love how he states to never believe rumors, only to proceed to full speculation moments later! he does raise a somewhat semi-valid suspicion I guess about the possibility of MJPEG for 8K: From a video perspective, the camera’s 8K video capture capability will prepare videographers for the future of movie-making- capturing 8K footage today allows for even higher-quality 4K productions in addition to the ability to extract high-resolution still images from the video footage. To my knowledge only the 1DX2 & 5D4 had a stills extract from video feature and both those cams used MJPEG. The thought alone of that codec returning gives me the shivers and it would be plain silly for Canon to place such an inefficient codec for such high resolution video files. But who knows.. when Canon introduced 4K on the 1DC it did have that one caveat! No worry 1Dx III also has the image extractor (from the official manual): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulUsher Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Timotheus said: Matt Granger is here to shit on your dreams lol Recent Canon history certainly is on the side of his analysis. Cripple Hammer represent! We shall see in a few weeks time... Not sure if we’ll hear that quickly, especially as CP+ has been cancelled What does Granger know, or any of us for that matter It’ll be a real guessing game until official announcement. I’m now questioning whether there will even be a 1:1 4K crop mode from 8K sensor because that would mean a 2X crop. Has me wondering whether the R5 will support APSC sized lenses at all, or whether they’ll leave the EFS compatibility for the lower end R, RP and R6? The R5 could be their only full frame proper- might make sense on the flagship, or would customers feel cheated (is this the gotcha?) There’s only mention of EF support in the presser, not EF-S. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, gt3rs said: No worry 1Dx III also has the image extractor (from the official manual): Ah great catch/relief! So yeah total BS “red flag” from Granger.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotheus Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 The hype is just bewildering. Still (officially) unanswered questions: - amount of crop on 4k and higher res - recording limitations on 4k and higher res - AF limitations (DPAF?) on 4k and higher res - codecs, bitrates - price None of it in the announcement, yet the internet is on fire. I dunno... To be clear, I would love to see Canon take hybrid shooters serious once again. But with what we know now, it's hard to see how they have already proven that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokara Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 On 2/13/2020 at 9:01 AM, Matthew19 said: It's possible that straight off the sensor 8k recording is less heat-generating than 2X oversampled 4k recording. My iMac Pro can spit out a 4k Prores file from 4k footage quicker and with less heat than it can a1080p h264 file from the same footage. No? For internal recording the limiting factor is the heat generated by the processor encoder. That is why the old 1D cameras could shoot 4K footage long before anyone else, they were using mjpeg codecs which did not stress the processor, while most other cameras used H.264 for encoding (which generates a lot more heat). For hardware encoding you need a thermally efficient processor or some sort of external cooling such as a fan (an option frequently used in high end video cameras). Cell phones get away with higher specs because they use variable frame rates, which means that in complex scenes that are stressing the processor (and making it hot) the frame rate drops so that it remains within an acceptable thermal envelope. Oversampling would not generate as much heat since most of that comes from the actual encoding, and if you have a smaller data set then it will require less overhead to encode it. Straight 8K would probably run hotter than oversampled 4K off a 8K base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Timotheus said: The hype is just bewildering. Still (officially) unanswered questions: To be fair to Canon... (and I am the first to call them out over hype) This time they do genuinely deserve some credit. First the 1D X III and now this... The first ever full frame mirrorless 8K camera. And a big shift in policy to maximise video on their stills cameras, rather than protecting Cinema EOS lineup. This part is not hype. Internal RAW and 10bit on the 1DX 3 is real. EOS R5 will surely get a high video spec as well. There is always the usual hype from the usual suspects when it comes to any manufacturer. At the moment it's worse with Sony people. BenEricson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted February 14, 2020 Super Members Share Posted February 14, 2020 Some unusual shorts he's got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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