Canon EOS R5 - What Panasonic, Sony and Fuji can do to fight THE 8K BEAST

[Andrew Reid]

The toughest competition in 2020 will come from the surprise Canon EOS R5 with 8K video. Although 8K is an attention grabbing technical achievement, most people will use this camera in 4K mode. The competition now has an 'image problem' delivering cameras at 4K and 6K resolution to customers obsessed with resolution. I therefore expect the Sony A7S III to shoot 8K and for the GH6 / GH8 to also shoot 8K but really it is all a distraction. What matters isn't 8K, it's the following...

https://www.eoshd.com/cameras/canon-eos-r5-what-the-competition-must-do-next/

[anonim]

Imho nothing special but to put the price way way lower. They all share and could use pretty the same technology. With 5000-7000e price range of bodies and 2000+e for lens, regarding their logical targeting market - well represented here in EosHD - it seems to me that they all lost their mind or fall in self-obsessed narcissism, looking just to each other - who has the most pompous announce and spectacular advertising. And watch  how Blackmagic and other more flexible and more inventive newcomers eat their market.

[Andrew Reid]

"EOSHD" all capitals.

4 minutes ago, anonim said:

And watch  how Blackmagic and other more flexible and more inventive newcomers eat their market.

They are not more inventive. They just understand the appeal to filmmakers, enthusiasts and videographers, of the phrase "Cinema Camera" and the codec options "ProRes and RAW", for cheap.

Things that so far completely allude the Japanese!

[rawshooter]

The suggestion you make would require expensive licensing deals (licensing ProRes from Apple, licensing color science from Arri, a competitor...), so I'm not holding my breath.

Wouldn't be surprised if the camera will end up recording 8K in no more than 10bit 4:2:0, in a highly compressed codec.

[Andrew Reid]

I wonder what percentage of $3000 these licensing deals actually would cost the Japanese camera makers.

Just pass the cost onto the customer and they will gladly pay. Who would turn down Alexa colour science and ProRes RAW for $300 extra?

We are talking top end cutting edge mirrorless cameras not consumer low-end.

Or do a patent swap.

The main challenge will be getting Arri and Apple to agree, me thinks.

[anonim]

38 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

"EOSHD" all capitals.

They are not more inventive. They just understand the appeal to filmmakers, enthusiasts and videographers, of the phrase "Cinema Camera" and the codec options "ProRes and RAW", for cheap.

Things that so far completely allude the Japanese!

...that understanding is also sort of comparative inventiveness.

But - writing to external USB disk? Inventing own property brilliant RAW codec? (Even Z-cam keep evolving it also.) Plethora of open protocols? Establishing another type of connecting to external monitor - as Z cam? Come on...

 

[anonim]

24 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

We are talking top end cutting edge mirrorless cameras not consumer low-end.

I am talking about successors of cameras that founded EOSHD as truly user-base of aspiring indie community who actually will buy it, not just blabbing and salivating about specs. Problem exactly and indeed is: they are more and more becoming as trophy items, not a really achievable tools for targeting market. I have no problem with it, but just look at results of your voting list about actually used camera here.

 

[Avenger 2.0]

How about Panasonic getting some better AF capabilities? They need that more than 8k...

[marcuswolschon]

You want small, leightweigt lenses but a large lens mount?

That sounds like quite a contradiction.

Also I see the lens mount and sensor diameter as just an internal, technical detail. The collected light is important. Not what area it's focused on to meassure.

[marcuswolschon]

I fear panasonic doesn't need much of this to compete with Blackmagic.

When both provide an 8K image with their next cameras,

then Panasonic will still have a well rounded hybrid stills+video camera with AF and a ton of features

and Blackmagic will still have a no-frills camera that offers great colours, video codecs and time code.

 

That's a very comfortable split of the market.

 

Canon will still be crippling their cameras in some way and stay out of the loop.

 

[marcuswolschon]

22 minutes ago, anonim said:

I am talking about successors of cameras that founded EOSHD as truly user-base of aspiring indie community who actually will buy it, not just blabbing and salivating about specs. Problem exactly and indeed is: they are more and more becoming as trophy items, not a really achievable tools for targeting market. I have no problem with it, but just look at results of your voting list about actually used camera here.

 

 

I too started with the GH1. Then GH2, then GH4, then GH4R, then GH5.

Back then these where cutting edge cameras and the people who used them back in the days have evolved and learned to get better at their craft too.

[Andrew Reid]

21 minutes ago, anonim said:

I am talking about successors of cameras that founded EOSHD as truly user-base of aspiring indie community who actually will buy it, not just blabbing and salivating about specs. Problem exactly and indeed is: they are more and more becoming as trophy items, not a really achievable tools for targeting market. I have no problem with it, but just look at results of your voting list about actually used camera here.

I agree with you.

GH1 is really the founding camera of this site, not the 5D Mark II.

Blackmagic have innovated with BRAW and Resolve, yes sure.

But you talk about achievable tools for target market - indie and aspiring filmmakers - we need IBIS, we need an EVF, and a screen visible in daylight. We also need the option for a sensor larger than S35. When does ticking off a specs sheet become innovation? I see the EOS R5 specs less as a trophy item, more of an all-guns blazing approach vs Blackmagic's paired back cost cut mission.

[anonim]

10 minutes ago, marcuswolschon said:

That's a very comfortable split of the market.

Oh, I don't think that Panasonic feels comfortable about selling of GH5s. 

[Django]

As far as ergonomics & features, the Canon competition have to start implementing stuff like internal NDs..

Sony especially should include the FS5's Vari-ND tech inside Alpha series. 

I don't see them going too far up resolution/codec wise because of XDCam cannibalisation fear.

Panasonic are in the best position to compete on that front, but they really need to sort out PDAF, and maybe hire better design team (take some cues from Leica ffs)!

Fuji, I'd love them to do a proper cine cam, but make it radical by taking cues from retro 8mm pistol cams:

 

[rawshooter]

The problem is that Canon, like all big camera manufacturers, uses an ASIC architecture for the camera electronics and signal processing: single-purpose boards where most functions are hard-wired, allowing smaller bodies, less cooling and lower manufacturing costs in high volumes.

To implement ProRes, Canon would need to develop a new ASIC from scratch, which is expensive, and is only done every couple of camera generations, with one ASIC for all current Canon SLR and mirrorless cameras.

Blackmagic, Arri and RED and other smaller manufacturers use FPGA instead of ASIC: fully programmable boards (or mini computers) where new codecs and functions can be implemented in software. While FPGAs are more flexible and cheaper to develop initially, they are larger, require more cooling andbigger camera housings, and are more expensive to manufacture per piece than ASICs.

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K and 6K cameras are good examples for those advantages and disadvantages of the FPGA architecture.

The Sigma fp is a good example for the advantages of ASIC (smaller body with a full frame sensor), but also for the disadvantages (lots of limitations that likely can't be fixed in firmware).

 

[Andrew Reid]

13 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

The problem is that Canon, like all big camera manufacturers, uses an ASIC architecture for the camera electronics and signal processing: single-purpose boards where most functions are hard-wired, allowing smaller bodies, less cooling and lower manufacturing costs in high volumes.

To implement ProRes, Canon would need to develop a new ASIC from scratch, which is expensive, and is only done every couple of camera generations, with one ASIC for all current Canon SLR and mirrorless cameras.

Blackmagic, Arri and RED and other smaller manufacturers use FPGA instead of ASIC: fully programmable boards (or mini computers) where new codecs and functions can be implemented in software. While FPGAs are more flexible and cheaper to develop initially, they are larger, require more cooling andbigger camera housings, and are more expensive to manufacture per piece than ASICs.

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K and 6K cameras are good examples for those advantages and disadvantages of the FPGA architecture.

The Sigma fp is a good example for the advantages of ASIC (smaller body with a full frame sensor), but also for the disadvantages (lots of limitations that likely can't be fixed in firmware).

Yes all 100% true - thanks for the insight.

Does ProRes absolutely have to be implemented in FPGA form?

In my opinion - ProRes encoding doesn't have to be on the main ASIC - Can't it be a separate FPGA chip or ASIC? Either way, a ProRes ASIC should have been in development in Japan ages ago and ready to go. Instead we are still asking and they are unable / unwilling to invest and deliver. Very frustrating.

14 minutes ago, Django said:

As far as ergonomics & features, the Canon competition have to start implementing stuff like internal NDs..

Sony especially should include the FS5's Vari-ND tech inside Alpha series. 

I don't see them going too far up resolution/codec wise because of XDCam cannibalisation fear.

Panasonic are in the best position to compete on that front, but they really need to sort out PDAF, and maybe hire better design team (take some cues from Leica ffs)!

Yes another missed opportunity.

What IS the deal with the FS5 vari-ND not making it into other products??!

[anonim]

29 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

But you talk about achievable tools for target market - indie and aspiring filmmakers - we need IBIS, we need an EVF, and a screen visible in daylight. We also need the option for a sensor larger than S35. When does ticking off a specs sheet become innovation? I see the EOS R5 specs less as a trophy item, more of an all-guns blazing approach vs Blackmagic's paired back cost cut mission.

Probably shame on me, but I have to admit that I see m43 as quite enough and the most capable sensor for getting comparative advantages at the moment - for concerning user base  Although, I could compare my own shooting experiences with just two proper cine-cameras: Canon C200 (marvelous) and Ursa 4.6k (great but clumsy) - sadly, never touched any ARRI or RED, but I'm expecting better days...

But, if I understand well, first of all we yet don't know too much about EOS R5 (from experience dubious) implementations of specs (but I read that new DX3 write raw at 2500mb). Second, it'll be above 5-6000e without rigging, without professional audio solution, without ND, etc... so bare trophy to show other who (think) is the boss  Third, at the moment of this all-guns blazing Billy the Kid seeing the market, (say) Kinefity Mavo's will be three years old or mature.

[anonim]

21 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

The problem is that Canon, like all big camera manufacturers, uses an ASIC architecture for the camera electronics and signal processing: single-purpose boards where most functions are hard-wired, generally resulting in smaller bodies, less cooling and is cheaper to manufacture in high volumes. To implement ProRes, Canon would need to develop a new ASIC from scratch, which is expensive (and is only done every couple of camera generations, for all Canon SLR and mirrorless cameras).

Blackmagic, Arri and RED and other smaller manufacturers use FPGA instead of ASIC: basically, fully programmable boards (or mini computers) where new codecs and functions can be implemented in software. While FPGAs are more flexible and cheaper to develop initially, they are larger, require more cooling andbigger camera housings, and are more expensive to manufacture per piece than ASICs.

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K and 6K cameras are good examples for thosr advantages and disadvantages of the FPGA architecture.

The Sigma fp is a good example for the advantages of ASIC (smaller body with a full frame sensor), but also for the disadvantages (lots of limitations that likely can't be fixed in firmware).

 

Great, thanks! Do you maybe know what architecture use Kinefinity or Z-cam?

[Django]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What IS the deal with the FS5 vari-ND not making it into other products??!

I dunno. The Sony Hammer? Guess they had to give FS5 something the other cams couldn't do.  

I think FS7 mk2 has it too though. It's ace tech, they should really spread it across every video centric product imo.

Actually it's my biggest hope for A7S3, amazing low-light AND vari-ND. Shoot wide-open non-stop day & night!

[Avenger 2.0]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

In my opinion - ProRes encoding doesn't have to be on the main ASIC - Can't it be a separate FPGA chip or ASIC? Either way, a ProRes ASIC should have been in development in Japan ages ago and ready to go. Instead we are still asking and they are unable / unwilling to invest and deliver. Very frustrating.

These FPGA chip are not only expensive but do also consume a lot of battery power.
Maybe they think for consumers the ProRes is too confusing?
Anyway, bigger question is, why was there never ProRes in their Cxxx line?

I'm glad the Canon mirrorless are getting better video.
While the Cxxx camera's may have better connectivity and ND filters, they are big, have no weather sealing and have just a plastic body.