Sony scraps 2020 mirrorless camera features to prioritise PS5 bill of materials cost

[Mokara]

Sounds fishy to me. The amount of DRAM used in high end cameras is minute compared to all other applications. If there is a shortage then you would be using stuff like that in high end products, not mass market products. I can see it impacting products like PS units, but not flagship cameras. If it cost more they would just increase the price by $100 and no one would notice.

Escalating cost of materials primarily affects large volume low margin products (such as something like a PS4).

[Andrew Reid]

8 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Sounds fishy to me. The amount of DRAM used in high end cameras is minute compared to all other applications. If there is a shortage then you would be using stuff like that in high end products, not mass market products. I can see it impacting products like PS units, but not flagship cameras. If it cost more they would just increase the price by $100 and no one would notice.

Escalating cost of materials primarily affects large volume low margin products (such as something like a PS4).

That is the whole point, they don't want it impacting products like the PS5... A massively important device for Sony's bottom line.

How committed are Sony really to cameras?

While I don't agree with PhotoRumours he does have a point:

"I have been saying this for years - the moment the camera business gets challenging, Sony will back up or back out. The full-frame mirrorless market is a crowded, shrinking space now and it is not what it used to be 5 years ago when Sony basically was the only player. I expect to see more canceled Sony products in the future, cost-cutting measures, etc - pretty much everything that other photo companies are going through. The good part for Sony is that their camera business is basically a rounding error that has no impact on the company."

No, the camera business is not basically 'a rounding error' it is far bigger than people give it credit for.

But the moment it becomes difficult, Sony will prioritise other businesses.

[Mokara]

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes, the filmmaker and his family sadly were not found a bed in hospital. They could have been saved. I also find it extremely sad and suspicious that the two main doctors who blew the whistle early on are dead.. One of them in his 30's. The virus has a 2% mortality rate and tends to impact old people worse, so the chances of a fit and healthy 30 year old doctor dying from the virus alone are very slim. I think there are factors at play we don't know about.

I also find it hard to believe the virus came from a fish market, or from some sort of sneezing snake.

Far more likely to have originated from the Wuhan institute of virology.

"The laboratory took over a decade to complete from its conception in 2003, and scientists such as U.S. molecular biologist Richard H. Ebright expressed concern of previous escapes of the SARS virus at Chinese laboratories in Beijing, and the pace and scale of China's plans for expansion into BSL–4 laboratories."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology

Why were the Chinese government so keen to cover it up in the first month of infection?

It could even be possible for research lab animals to be sold on the black market and end up at the wild animals market in Wuhan.

Actually virulent virus tends to take out proportionately greater numbers of young healthy people. The reason being that the virus itself does not kill you, it is your immune response to the virus that kills you. So the people who die are those who are generally in a weakened state (such as old folk or people in otherwise poor health), and also those who mount a very vigorous response to the virus (these tend to be young adults with a high level of general health). This is quite normal. It is not at all surprising that the doctors who raised the alarm died, they would fall in the young healthy adult category. In pandemics being too healthy is a bad thing, it is just as bad as being in poor health.

Virus such as these tend to come from environments where domesticated animals are in close contact with humans. They frequently come from places such as Asia because there you have high density rural populations with perfect conditions for cross species infection.

[Mokara]

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

That is the whole point, they don't want it impacting products like the PS5... A massively important device for Sony's bottom line.

How committed are Sony really to cameras?

While I don't agree with PhotoRumours he does have a point:

"I have been saying this for years - the moment the camera business gets challenging, Sony will back up or back out. The full-frame mirrorless market is a crowded, shrinking space now and it is not what it used to be 5 years ago when Sony basically was the only player. I expect to see more canceled Sony products in the future, cost-cutting measures, etc - pretty much everything that other photo companies are going through. The good part for Sony is that their camera business is basically a rounding error that has no impact on the company."

No, the camera business is not basically 'a rounding error' it is far bigger than people give it credit for.

But the moment it becomes difficult, Sony will prioritise other businesses.

The price is the price, there is no way something like the a7SIII could have any impact on PS4 cost of materials or production, the relative market size disparity is too large. I still call BS on that argument. They might have other reasons for not making the camera (the most probable one being that they can't make a processor that is competitive enough for the features they need), but DRAM cost is not one of them.

[Andrew Reid]

23 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Actually virulent virus tends to take out proportionately greater numbers of young healthy people. The reason being that the virus itself does not kill you, it is your immune response to the virus that kills you.

Has someone been watching fox news... bloody hell

Nope, this is a flu-like virus and flu is worse for old people with weaker immune systems.

If you look at who has died the vast majority are older than their 30s.

23 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Virus such as these tend to come from environments where domesticated animals are in close contact with humans.

It is a novel virus never before seen. Humans have lived in close contact with domesticated animals for millions of years.

If your dog sneezes on you, you are not likely to get a novel flu.

The animal market in Wuhan did not contain domesticated animals, it was mainly wild.

Exotic stuff like bats and snakes.

Perhaps some ex-research centre rats with a cold.

Or maybe a snake that sneezes followed by a long SSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

23 minutes ago, Mokara said:

They frequently come from places such as Asia because there you have high density rural populations with perfect conditions for cross species infection.

Wuhan is not a high density rural area it's a city.

You have just won the annual EOSHD award for most untruths in a single post, and it is not even yet March.

Congratulations.

Can somebody design him a trophy?

[Andrew Reid]

24 minutes ago, Mokara said:

The price is the price, there is no way something like the a7SIII could have any impact on PS4 cost of materials or production, the relative market size disparity is too large. I still call BS on that argument. They might have other reasons for not making the camera (the most probable one being that they can't make a processor that is competitive enough for the features they need), but DRAM cost is not one of them.

They are still making the camera, it isn't cancelled, but they are dropping the stacked-DRAM sensor as a feature... Or possibly another feature reliant on more DRAM, like a larger buffer or 8K.

It might not be the A7S III they are referring to but the A7 IV which is made in very large quantities and contains a lot of DRAM chips especially if half of them are bolted to the back of the sensor aka A9.

In a situation where supply is very limited and your most important hardware release of the next 5 years is facing $450 BOM cost with price pressure from Microsoft, you do not aggravate the supply chain situation yourself, you go through every product with cutting edge expensive DRAM and do what you can to pair it back.

This is what Sony is alleged to have done and I can see the logic in it.

[Video Hummus]

7 hours ago, abehalpert said:

The coronavirus is such a nightmare. I thought it was only killing the infirm, but according to the BBC article it looks like a lot of middle-aged folks are dying, too. Maybe they would have survived in hospital? So sad...

Yes I’m afraid we might have the next major disease outbreak. It could very well become a Spanish flu type event. Why? It’s killing heathy 30 year olds that receive intensive medical care along with the old and infirm. It’s like the flu on steroids.

It causes the bodies defense systems to attack your own body in an overreaction, causing septic shock, and death.

It needs to be treated very carefully and thoughtful less we have a major outbreak.

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Has someone been watching fox news... bloody hell

Nope, this is a flu-like virus and flu is worse for old people with weaker immune systems.

If you look at who has died the vast majority are older than their 30s.

It is a novel virus never before seen. Humans have lived in close contact with domesticated animals for millions of years.

If your dog sneezes on you, you are not likely to get a novel flu.

The animal market in Wuhan did not contain domesticated animals, it was mainly wild.

Exotic stuff like bats and snakes.

Perhaps some ex-research centre rats with a cold.

Or maybe a snake that sneezes followed by a long SSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

Wuhan is not a high density rural area it's a city.

You have just won the annual EOSHD award for most untruths in a single post, and it is not even yet March.

Congratulations.

Can somebody design him a trophy?

I work at a pharmaceutical company as a research scientist. We are actually working on this stuff. You don't know what you are talking about.

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

They are still making the camera, it isn't cancelled, but they are dropping the stacked-DRAM sensor as a feature... Or possibly another feature reliant on more DRAM, like a larger buffer or 8K.

It might not be the A7S III they are referring to but the A7 IV which is made in very large quantities and contains a lot of DRAM chips especially if half of them are bolted to the back of the sensor aka A9.

In a situation where supply is very limited and your most important hardware release of the next 5 years is facing $450 BOM cost with price pressure from Microsoft, you do not aggravate the supply chain situation yourself, you go through every product with cutting edge expensive DRAM and do what you can to pair it back.

This is what Sony is alleged to have done and I can see the logic in it.

The issue Sony have is not the sensor, they are fine with that. Their problem is that their processor is old and for whatever reason they don't/can't/won't update it. Until they do that they are not going to have a major improvement in overall specs. If the A7SIII is limited in specs, it is not going to be because of DRAM supply or cost.

[Andrew Reid]

Much as I enjoy talking about death statistics on a camera forum...

Just going to point this out and be done with arguing with you.

0.02% between 10-39 died.

If you take people in their 30's alone, the percentage is even smaller and probably only greater than zero because China murdered a doctor.

So when you say "Actually virulent virus tends to take out proportionately greater numbers of young healthy people"

Maybe it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about. Which is a bit worrying if you really do work for big pharma!

Either that, or it doesn't apply in the case of the coronavirus and flu. Which is what we're talking about here.

Still - It is a disaster and a tragedy for China and for the economy.

My thoughts are with all those affected - the sick and those livelihoods ruined, from the lone businessmen to entire trades (like tourism) put on hold indefinitely.

As for camera manufacturing, everyone who relies on a supply chain of parts from China will be impacted not just Sony.

DRAM is a problem for Sony, you can't deny it. It is in every camera they make.

If the supply dries up they are fucked.

But yes... It's all the slow processor's fault if A7 IV doesn't have a fast DRAM buffered sensor readout 🤨

[User]

China has ZERO interest in crippling its economic engine.
The virus most probably jumped from Vespertilio (bats) to Pholidota (pangolins) where it was able to mutate to something that could infect humans.

End of story.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/10/science/pangolin-coronavirus.html

[Andrew Reid]

Saying Vespertilio instead of bats doesn't make you sound cleverer.

Of course China had no intention of having this virus spread.

I just view the infectious disease research lab in Wuhan with a bit more suspicion than a food market.

[User]

That you have suspicion doesn't supersede the larger scientific community.

I say we go find out for ourselves.

Mouth to mouth with a pangolin.

[Super8]

9 hours ago, Pedro said:

So, you guys think that Canon's R5 & R6 announcement has nothing to do with this?
I mean, is it possible that sony was caught off guard and the plans for the a7sIII no longer make sense so they have to go back to the drawing board...
These new Canon cameras will surly impact Sony's mirrorless market share.

Did Canon give a release date for those 2 cameras?

[Super8]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

The price is the price, there is no way something like the a7SIII could have any impact on PS4 cost of materials or production, the relative market size disparity is too large. I still call BS on that argument. They might have other reasons for not making the camera (the most probable one being that they can't make a processor that is competitive enough for the features they need), but DRAM cost is not one of them.

You are a scientific researcher so you do know cameras, right?  Seems like you don't understand what Andrew or Sony is saying.  All efforts are being out into the PS5 production and release and not the A7 line up.

[Thomas Hill]

Here's an informative interview about viruses that move from animals to humans and how scientists track down their origin https://www.wnyc.org/story/new-coronavirus-wont-be-the-last-outbreak-to-move-from-animal-to-human

[ND64]

Outsourcing production and logistics to China wasn't a good idea after all. 

[leslie]

9 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

I understand your suspicious but the reality is that wild animals have transmitted viruses to human race from the beginning of the times, I hear the same suspicious about AIDS when it was known by the public in the 80's, a decease created in a lab released against gay community, etc. Now has been confirmed after some years of research that AIDS was transmitted from monkeys in Africa to humans around 1910-20, since the virus has been found in old samples from early 40's in Africa from people killed by an unknown decease. The most probably cause of the Corona virus creation is a mutation of the original virus from a wild animal like always, and this is going to continue happening in places where humans are in close contact with wild animals, like China and Africa.

I hope China will finally learn from this bad experience and most probably will ban in the future markets for wild animal close to big cities.

i dont think animals are the issue, animals are quite content to keep doing what they have been doing for thousands of years and not bothering anyone, lets not take it out on the poor animals. I live in the country, i'm probably surrounded by thousands if not millions of wild animals ranging from bugs up to kangaroos, wild dogs and wild pigs and deer. There are two issues at play here 1) Its mankind in general thats the issue. Whenever man interferes with natural order of things, things get out of kilter very quickly. whether thats an algae bloom or pig / bird virus. My generation and the ones that have come after it, have benefited greatly from vaccinations and penicillin. but if you asked a virus expert they'd probably agree that microbes are starting to fight back.  2) god gave Israel food laws, some animals  are clean and good to eat, some are unclean and not good to eat. there's probably a bloody good reason why bats are unclean and bad to eat.  England learnt this lesson what ? 20 years ago with mad cow disease, there are some things, one shouldn't stick in your mouth or the mouths of other animals. That's why you should only buy 100% grass fed beef and lamb from aus/nz 😀

  China doesn't like looking bad in front of other countries any whistle blower in china is unlikely to survive the experience. Regardless or whether is is manufactured or mutated from the wild. Tienanmen Square should prove that beyond reasonable doubt,   I'm willing to bet that china would have loved to go into hong kong and the other areas that have been protesting recently with a few tanks and soldiers. The only thing keeping those protesters safe is the large amount of the worlds media being there to keep an eye on things.

getting back on topic, should you not be successful in obtaining a sony,  bmd do make a fairly viable option i'm sure 😉

[Avenger 2.0]

8 hours ago, Super8 said:

Did Canon give a release date for those 2 cameras?

Looks to me like the (canon) rumor sites are mostly pretty accurate on release date.

[BTM_Pix]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

My thoughts are with all those affected - the sick and those livelihoods ruined, from the lone businessmen to entire trades (like tourism) put on hold indefinitely.

 

Not to mention MapCamera having to issue a profit warning if my trip next week gets cancelled.