COVID19 Kibosh

[fuzzynormal]

13 minutes ago, mercer said:

only a portion of the population will need those measures.

Indeed, but the numbers have been trending to that portion outstripping available care.

Luckily, Trump just announced that Americans shouldn't gather in groups larger than 10, so that'll help.  Trump's transitioned from a glib attitude about COVID to something a bit more somber.  Behind the curve, I think, but at least the tone has changed in the last 72 hours.  BTW, you should know he rates his response to COVID as a 10 out of 10! Lots of 10's today.

[mercer]

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

Forget that... You're always so defensive thinking we aliens tend to hate Americans, oh God, I and many others, we actually love the Americans!

We just tend to see you watch Europe from your angle and there are so many differences in-between you ignore, that's all : -)

I have no idea what you're talking about! I rarely insert myself into these conversations and I cannot remember one instance where I have said anything negative about Europe or Europeans?

[Emanuel]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

I have no idea what you're talking about! I rarely insert myself into these conversations and I cannot remember one instance where I have said anything negative about Europe or Europeans?

Nothing about that : ) Just a distant idea from the real Europe(s), that's it : -)

[mercer]

8 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I'm sorry, I hate to sound rude (you don't even deserve it!) but you have no idea what you're talking about. There's a percentage who will need it. Stats say it. The higher amount of infected people brings all that, unfortunately. Again, Europe is not USA. We have healthcare for free, yes, but we have no the resources of your own.

Have you ever been in Europe, Glenn? Please answer this. Not glamour Paris, Rome or London for American tourists. Those towns are "NOT" Europe for Christ's sake!

No need to apologize. The fact is this, we are so early in the game, that it is hard to predict what will happen. I NEVER said a percentage won't need it... JC Emmanuel... I said that it's likely the mortality rate could drop once more people are infected.

I, honestly, don't understand why my understanding of Europe is relevant to this discussion? The closest I have been to Europe is Epcot Center. Lol. Everybody seemed pretty healthy there. 

[mercer]

18 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

BTW, you should know he rates his response to COVID as a 10 out of 10! Lots of 10's today.

He is a piece of work. But as a word of advice. There is a tone, not specifically directed at you, but there is a tone in the left-leaning media reporting and in statements from the anti-Trump crowd that they'd like to see him fail on some level.

For instance, the media was more interested in his impeachment trial than covering the early spread of Covid-19. And as soon as that exercise in futility ended, the media moved onto how the Trump Administration failed with their early response to the Covid-19 outbreak.

[fuzzynormal]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I will ask this... in 2009 when H1N1 was sweeping the world with 1 billion cases, why wasn't there the panic that there is today? Why wasn't it reported about as much? President Obama, and his administration, was praised for their response, yet President Trump has done more than his predecessor with Covid-19 than was done for H1N1 and he is ridiculed.

Oh, and for whatever it's worth (not much) I do disagree with the assumption that Trump has "done more."  He does have different issues to cope with, but back in 2009 we approved a test for H1N1 a month before anyone listed H1N1 as a pandemic.  Ahead of the curve there.  If you recall, because of the Obama Care issue, a lot of conservatives were complaining that we were too aggressive regarding treatment.  That it was a political ploy or a scare tactic.

A flu like H1N1 has anti-virals to treat it. And it's the flu, you know?  Humans walk around with some level of immunity because we've all had it. There's even a semi-effective vaccine.

COVID-19?  Nope. No meds. COVID19 is new to the immune system. No one has protection from COVID19.  Well, those that have recovered from it have.

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Oh, and for whatever it's worth (not much) I do disagree with the assumption that Trump has "done more."  He does have different issues to cope with, but back in 2009 we approved a test for H1N1 a month before anyone listed H1N1 as a pandemic.  Ahead of the curve there.  If you recall, because of the Obama Care issue, a lot of conservatives were complaining that we were too aggressive regarding treatment.  That it was a political ploy or a scare tactic.

A flu like H1N1 has anti-virals to treat it. And it's the flu, you know?  Humans walk around with some level of immunity because we've all had it. There's even a semi-effective vaccine.

COVID-19?  Nope. No meds. COVID19 is new to the immune system. No one has protection from COVID19.  Well, those that have recovered from it have.

That's a fair point. Covid-19 is definitely a different animal and in some ways the government should be given a little more leeway considering. It's my understanding that China released the make up of the virus in January. Germany was the first to develop a test, followed by Australia. The CDC developed and distributed their test in early February. The FDA approved the test and then recalled it when it was known to be inaccurate. Now, as you know, there is a tradition of "the buck stops here" in US politics but as I'm sure you also know, our government is primarily run by bureaucrats, the same folks that worked in the CDC under President Obama work for the CDC under President Trump.

However, my original point wasn't to say that President Trump is better than President Obama, I was merely saying that President Trump has a different bar in the eyes of the media.

[fuzzynormal]

24 minutes ago, mercer said:

statements from the anti-Trump crowd that they'd like to see him fail on some level.

Well, yeah.  But...why is that a bad thing?  That's just American politics.  

From never-Trump conservatives to bleeding hearts liberals.  If a guy is implementing policies you think are directly detrimental to the nation, you'd rather not see those things happen.  The more noble and fundamental ideals of American Exceptionalism don't seem to be on the Trump menu, imho.  

This sort of conflict is ever thus depending on who's butt sits at the executive desk.  I'm pretty confident conservatives would have liked to see Obama fail at creating the ACA, for instance.

I'm not ashamed of my ideology and still appreciate other POV's.  Now, I'd prefer a FDR type in office rather than a self-serving-corporate-lackey type, which is how I view Trump and those that prefer America to be a corpocracy; don't think it's a healthy society, that.  

What can I do but hope the pendulum swings?  How do we get there?  Trumpism failing is a start...please keep in mind that failure depends on the specific situation!  For instance, a China trade war.  I could think, "no way that's gonna work, it's unrealistic, full of ignorant hubris, and it can't be pulled off. Great if it somehow did though."  Like watching a 95 yard Hail Mary pass.  You want to see it happen, but you know it's impossible.

[fuzzynormal]

Just now, mercer said:

President Trump has a different bar in the eyes of the media.

Not just the media.  He is who he is and it unnerves a lot of folks because it's pretty damn bonkers.  Which is why his supporters enjoy him.  Librul tears and all that.

[Emanuel]

41 minutes ago, mercer said:

No need to apologize. The fact is this, we are so early in the game, that it is hard to predict what will happen. I NEVER said a percentage won't need it... JC Emmanuel... I said that it's likely the mortality rate could drop once more people are infected.

I, honestly, don't understand why my understanding of Europe is relevant to this discussion? The closest I have been to Europe is Epcot Center. Lol. Everybody seemed pretty healthy there. 

I like you, Glenn, and respect you. If I appreciate to be polite with everyone here, imagine with you!

Because there are so many Europes... and a free healthcare system won't handle a gross amount of infected people, so doctors will decide who live and let die.

This is a terrible tragedy! Two commercial airplanes per day crash in Italy these days. If one would already be a great disaster per se...

A considerable percentage will require mechanical ventilation (stats confirm it) and there's not even enough number of ventilators for everyone.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/what-if-two-covid-19-victims-need-ventilators-and-just-one-is-available/

[Jonesy Jones]

8 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Well, yeah.  But...why is that a bad thing?  That's just American politics.

Because libs would literally love to see masses die and the bottom fall out of the economy if it meant Trump out of office. Sick

[fuzzynormal]

29 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Because libs would literally love to see masses die and the bottom fall out of the economy if it meant Trump out of office. Sick

No. Didn't say that nor hope for any of that.  Qualified my definition of what I meant by "Failure".  Do you really think I'm some sort of cartoon over here?  

C'mon now.  I don't have a wax mustache and I'm not twirling it with a damsel tied to the railroad tracks. 

Okay. Okay.  Maybe you got me.

It's not really a damsel on the railroad tracks, it's an unborn fetus under the heel of my Birkenstock sandals.  I am twirling my mustache, but only because I'm proud of it and my new arm pit hair.  I was born a woman and have recently transitioned to my true orientation.  The hormones are awesome and I can afford them because even though I'm of sound mind and body I'm on unemployment, disability, and food stamps.  I threw away my bootstraps while on an Antifa march in Portland during Pride Week.  Took me a while to make the decision to accept my real identity, but after numerous trips to my school's gender neutral bathroom and meditating to the Flying Spaghetti Monster I've come to realize that with unprotected premarital sex and a vegan diet I'm ready to take away everyone's guns and jobs. 

Oh, and then I'll do genocide because bad man in President chair makes me sad.  That too.

Oh boy.  Too much?  Was that too much?  Curse you internet!  You did it to me again!!  Speaking of tracks, I've gone off the rails.  Sorry about that.  I better get outta here.  Love you all, seriously.

[eleison]

18 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Well, yeah.  But...why is that a bad thing?  That's just American politics.  

From never-Trump conservatives to bleeding hearts liberals.  If a guy is implementing policies you think are directly detrimental to the nation, you'd rather not see those things happen.  The more noble and fundamental ideals of American Exceptionalism don't seem to be on the Trump menu, imho.  

This sort of conflict is ever thus depending on who's butt sits at the executive desk.  I'm pretty confident conservatives would have liked to see Obama fail at creating the ACA, for instance.

I'm not ashamed of my ideology and still appreciate other POV's.  Now, I'd prefer a FDR type in office rather than a self-serving-corporate-lackey type, which is how I view Trump and those that prefer America to be a corpocracy; don't think it's a healthy society, that.  

What can I do but hope the pendulum swings?  How do we get there?  Trumpism failing is a start...please keep in mind that failure depends on the specific situation!  For instance, a China trade war.  I could think, "no way that's gonna work, it's unrealistic, full of ignorant hubris, and it can't be pulled off. Great if it somehow did though."  Like watching a 95 yard Hail Mary pass.  You want to see it happen, but you know it's impossible.

 

Did you say the same thing with Obama and the swine flu virus?  I doubt it....  People are going bonkers now.  Being bias is bad because it creates panic and kills people because rational thought gets drowned out.  It causes toilet paper to be hoarded, and ultimately people to die.

[eleison]

6 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

C'mon now.  I don't have a wax mustache and I'm not twirling it with a damsel tied to the railroad tracks. 

But you are because you are contributing to the panic and causing more noise when rational voices should be the ones being heard and listened to.  You don't even care that you are biased when you say, "Well, yeah.  But...why is that a bad thing?".  Of course its a bad thing.  Biases do not belong in logical thought.  Irrational people causes a bad situation to be 100X worse.

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Well, yeah.  But...why is that a bad thing?  That's just American politics.  

From never-Trump conservatives to bleeding hearts liberals.  If a guy is implementing policies you think are directly detrimental to the nation, you'd rather not see those things happen.

Well, that's not exactly what I was referring to, but I'm sure you know that.

11 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Not just the media.  He is who he is and it unnerves a lot of folks because it's pretty damn bonkers.  Which is why his supporters enjoy him.  Librul tears and all that.

I'm not a very political person. I went through that phase after 911 and quickly realized that BOTH political parties want us to treat political discourse like Monday Night Football, but like most Americans, I have my beliefs and my political opinions.

With that said, politics have become a game of ideology as opposed to results. It's evident in the, down the middle split, in American elections. I don't know if we'll ever see any kind of landslide in a national election again.

To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference in my everyday life since President Trump took office. Has his presidency affected your life in any negative ways?

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I'll probably kick myself for joining this "conversation" but here I go.

As an American, I believe in American Exceptionalism. Every POTUS, no matter their party or ideology, is and was my President.

It is pretty much a fact at this point that the lower numbers of infection, as of now, are due to closing our border to China when the government did it.

This comparison with Italy is fear mongering journalism at best. It's my understanding that Italy has the second oldest population in the world, have 100,000 Chinese migrant workers in Northern Italy, and have one of the worst, if not the worst, healthcare systems in Europe.

If anything, Italy's situation could be an example that Universal Healthcare, on a large scale, is a failure.

If people want to believe their news source of choice, then by all means, believe it. But I will ask this... in 2009 when H1N1 was sweeping the world with 1 billion cases, why wasn't there the panic that there is today? Why wasn't it reported about as much? President Obama, and his administration, was praised for their response, yet President Trump has done more than his predecessor with Covid-19 than was done for H1N1 and he is ridiculed. 

With that said, in these times I really don't think this should be a pissing match. I have to assume that every leader, from every country, are doing their best for their citizens.

Well, for a start, H1N1 was influenza, and there are drugs to treat influenza that are relatively effective if administered early enough after infection (they don't help if you start receiving them too late). You also have the advantage of partial immunity as a result of exposure to earlier strains. Flu can be controlled nationally if the effort is made, especially among at risk populations such as health care workers and the elderly. 

That is the main difference between the current outbreak and H1N1 (which was treated by governments very seriously as well). With covid-19 we have no defence except isolation.

H1N1 actually started in the US btw. Overall the pandemic was significantly less lethal than the average flu season, but had a higher than normal mortality rate among younger people (probably because that demographic had less partial immunity). The risks posed by that pandemic, although serious, was not comparable to what we face now. The main problem with H1N1 was not the mortality rate, but the number of people who were eventually infected (which was much higher than usual). The government response to H1N1 was appropriate and timely, more importantly they recognized the nature of the risk and responded correctly. Covid-19 is completely different. The case mortality rate is comparable to the 1918 pandemic that devastated the planet (it is about 100X higher than H1N1). It will also end up with a high number of people being infected overall if we don't do something to slow it down. In a worst case scenario everyone gets infected at more or less the same time and medical care is overwhelmed. It is those dynamics which most governments worldwide and certainly the experts in the field understand and why we are having the societal response that is going on now. 

The last time the developed world faced anything of this magnitude is the 1918 pandemic. The outcome does not have to be the same, but if we are going to avoid that we have to be proactive about it. Contrary to what Trump apparently believes, the problem will not solve itself or just go away if we ignore it. His attitude on the subject is extremely dangerous to us all.

[eleison]

8 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Well, for a start, H1N1 was influenza, and there are drugs to treat influenza that are relatively effective if administered early enough after infection (they don't help if you start receiving them too late). You also have the advantage of partial immunity as a result of exposure to earlier strains. Flu can be controlled nationally if the effort is made, especially among at risk populations such as health care workers and the elderly. 

That is the main difference between the current outbreak and H1N1 (which was treated by governments very seriously as well). With covid-19 we have no defence except isolation.

H1N1 actually started in the US btw. Overall the pandemic was significantly less lethal than the average flu season, but had a higher than normal mortality rate among younger people (probably because that demographic had less partial immunity). The risks posed by that pandemic, although serious, was not comparable to what we face now. The main problem with H1N1 was not the mortality rate, but the number of people who were eventually infected (which was much higher than usual). The government response to H1N1 was appropriate and timely, more importantly they recognized the nature of the risk and responded correctly. Covid-19 is completely different. The case mortality rate is comparable to the 1918 pandemic that devastated the planet (it is about 100X higher than H1N1). It will also end up with a high number of people being infected overall if we don't do something to slow it down. In a worst case scenario everyone gets infected at more or less the same time and medical care is overwhelmed. It is those dynamics which most governments worldwide and certainly the experts in the field understand and why we are having the societal response that is going on now. 

The last time the developed world faced anything of this magnitude is the 1918 pandemic. The outcome does not have to be the same, but if we are going to avoid that we have to be proactive about it. Contrary to what Trump apparently believes, the problem will not solve itself or just go away if we ignore it. His attitude on the subject is extremely dangerous to us all.

12,000 Americans died because of the swine flu.  I think Obama didn't have any travel bans until 8,000 Americans died.  So far approx 70 Americans have died because of the COVID19.  There have been travel bans, restaurants forcefully closed, etc.

Lets see what the final numbers will be.  I don' think your assessment of COVID19 is more dangerous than the swine flue will be proven true.  In just about any measurements, Trump has done better regarding containing pandemics than ANY of the previous administrations.

[Mokara]

11 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

No, I know.

Germany has a specific foreign trade law to scrutinise and prohibit takeovers from non-EU countries if it threatens national security and order.

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/germanys-foreign-investment-regime

The issue at hand really is whether he tried rather than whether he was thwarted Scooby Doo style by the meddling of those pesky kids.

 

 

It would not surprise me if he did. After all, he did propose buying Greenland without considering that the people living there might have something to say about that. He seems surprisingly ignorant about stuff like that, as though countries are just like some giant company and everything in them is a commodity for sale, including the people in it. After all, he is a guy born into a super rich family with a silver spoon in his mouth, I doubt he has any concept at all of what life is like for the ordinary joe. Those sorts of people never do.

[Mokara]

10 minutes ago, eleison said:

12,000 Americans died because of the swine flu.  I think Obama didn't have any travel bans until 8,000 Americans died.  So far approx 70 Americans have died because of the COVID19.  There have been travel bans, restaurants forcefully closed, etc.

Lets see what the final numbers will be.  I don' think your assessment of COVID19 is more dangerous than the swine flue will be proven true.

Travel bans are pointless when an epidemic starts in your own country. Just saying.

The 12000 deaths in the US is an estimate based on modeling to account for cases where testing was not done. The number of deaths in confirmed cases was 1642.

Case mortality rate for covid-19 is 7.7% at the moment and rising. This number will go down as the pandemic winds down, and will probably end up at around 2-3% In china, where the epidemic appears to have subsided for now, the case mortality rate is 4.5%. The case mortality rate for H1N1 was 0.03%. Do those numbers sound even remotely comparable to you?

[mercer]

28 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Because there are so many Europes... and a free healthcare system won't handle a gross amount of infected people, so doctors will decide who live and let die.

This is the biggest fear in the debate of Universal Health Care in the US.

30 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

This is a terrible tragedy! Two commercial airplanes per day crash in Italy these days. If one would already be a great disaster per se...

A considerable percentage will require mechanical ventilation (stats confirm it) and there's not even enough number of ventilators for everyone.

Hopefully, you realize my comments weren't meant to make light of this situation. I think a single death due to this virus is a tragedy. I was merely saying that what is happening in some parts of the world isn't indicative of the effects of the virus on the entire human population and that it is way too early to definitively state what the stats will be.