Has Canon planned a Formidable Attack

[sanveer]

The guys at Cinema5d tested the new Full Frame Canon C500 Mark ii, and ranked it for the highest dynamic range for any camera they've tested (at 13.1 Stops), apart from the Arri.

https://***URL not allowed***/canon-c500-markii-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter/

 

They've obviously not rested any of the REDs and many other cameras, and I also suspect that the Arri would have scored a hair under 14stops, but they didn't have the guts to release the score, fearing backlash. Also, people have been mocking their dynamic range tests, like everyone else (including that former BBC affiliated gentlemen who scored the GH5s at 14.7 stops). 

 

The S1H has the same sensor as the S1, which has a dynamic range of 14.5 stops in Stills mode (according to DXO mark, though not sure at what exact signal to noise ratio). Cinema5d calculated its dynamic range to be 12.7 stops for Video (different mode than stills, since it's for video, and 10-bit instead of 12-bit).

So, if the Canon C500 Mark ii was a stills camera, in still mode, one could probably add another 1.8 stops (+/-), to get about 14.9 stops or so. Which means, that Canon seems to have caught up with Sony's Image Sensors and maybe even surpassed them (the C500 Markii also has Class Leading Rolling Shutter for a Full Frame sensor). Also, the ability to pull up an image from almost 5 stops of underexposure, is also probably class leading for a camera at that price point (and maybe many above). 

This probably means that the Canon R5 and other R Series cameras are also going to be extremely competitive for video as well as for stills. For the longest we've been ranting about Canon not having enough dynamic range, for stills or video, but I am guessing it's not just caught up with Sony, it's probably even beating it in many aspects.

If Canon can price their R Series reasonably, and not do the old Canon trick of disabling features, it could pose a serious threat to Sony and everyone else around. 

 

[Andrew Reid]

It's $16,000!

S1H arguably has the same image for $4k.

[Geoff CB]

You can't just throw a cinema sensor in a still's camera and not have to worry about heat and processing power. The sensor is only a part of the equation, which is why the S1H is so expensive and has a heatsink compared to the S1. 

It's why the Mini Alexa came out after the Alexa at a higher cost, because of the processing needed to run that sensor in a small form factor.

You wont see that Canon C500 Mark ii sensor in a stills camera for years if ever. 

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

including that former BBC affiliated gentlemen who scored the GH5s at 14.7 stops

Lol, I think the cinema5d results are more indicative of real world performance. No way it’s 14.7

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

The guys at Cinema5d tested the new Full Frame Canon C500 Mark ii, and ranked it for the highest dynamic range for any camera they've tested (at 13.1 Stops

 

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

S1H... Cinema5d calculated its dynamic range to be 12.7 stops for Video

I think this is a respectable showing for the relatively compact S1H. Too bad they didn’t have a Internal ND solution for it.

[Andrew Reid]

None of you can appreciate this kind of dynamic range on a normal display. It is going to look horrible.

HDR1000 minimum requirement.

And I would not but much stock in Cinema5D's testing methodology for dynamic range.

The whole dynamic range technique is total bullshit in the real world... underexposing by 5 stops rather than lighting properly or appreciating good natural light. Nobody actually shoots a film this way. You would have a completely unusably dark frame on the monitor.

The Canon sensor isn't anything special. Really it isn't. The rolling shutter in 6K is about the same as an old GH4. The resolution is lower than 8K or what RED offers. The sensor size is smaller than the current state of the art larger format cameras like the 4K 10bit GFX 100. The dynamic range is no better than the sensor in a $2000 mirrorless camera. The S1H is $12,000 cheaper and good enough for a top-end Netflix show, in terms of the image. The Fuji GFX 100 has still a very powerful processor and 10bit codec in a much smaller body with great battery life. So forgive me if I don't jump up and down in excitement and rush out to spend $16k on the C500 II for creative reasons.

[ade towell]

And I wouldn't say Canon is surpassing Sony just yet - from what I've seen the Sony FX9 ($11k) seems to have at least as good DR as the Canon 500mk2 if not better - it seems to have more headroom in highlight handling

[Kisaha]

30 minutes ago, ade towell said:

And I wouldn't say Canon is surpassing Sony just yet - from what I've seen the Sony FX9 ($11k) seems to have at least as good DR as the Canon 500mk2 if not better - it seems to have more headroom in highlight handling

..the Sony costs significantly less also (as you mention).

For how long people will be paying the Canon-premium? Almost everything they have in the market is overpriced.

Only thing from Canon I happily overpaid for, was the last 70-200mm 4f. It is a great piece of equipment, nothing else justifies its price for me, especially after the recent releases in hybrids/cine cameras (they also have some very competitive dead cheap EF-S lenses that are ok).

[Video Hummus]

I would say yes, DR doesn’t matter much when you can control lighting. But go outside and see if 8 stops is the same as shooting 12 on your S1 or other high DR camera.

[User]

4 hours ago, sanveer said:

The guys at Cinema5d tested the new Full Frame Canon C500 Mark ii, and ranked it for the highest dynamic range for any camera they've tested (at 13.1 Stops), apart from the Arri.

https://***URL not allowed***/canon-c500-markii-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter/

 

They've obviously not rested any of the REDs and many other cameras, and I also suspect that the Arri would have scored a hair under 14stops, but they didn't have the guts to release the score, fearing backlash. Also, people have been mocking their dynamic range tests, like everyone else (including that former BBC affiliated gentlemen who scored the GH5s at 14.7 stops). 

 

The S1H has the same sensor as the S1, which has a dynamic range of 14.5 stops in Stills mode (according to DXO mark, though not sure at what exact signal to noise ratio). Cinema5d calculated its dynamic range to be 12.7 stops for Video (different mode than stills, since it's for video, and 10-bit instead of 12-bit).

So, if the Canon C500 Mark ii was a stills camera, in still mode, one could probably add another 1.8 stops (+/-), to get about 14.9 stops or so. Which means, that Canon seems to have caught up with Sony's Image Sensors and maybe even surpassed them (the C500 Markii also has Class Leading Rolling Shutter for a Full Frame sensor). Also, the ability to pull up an image from almost 5 stops of underexposure, is also probably class leading for a camera at that price point (and maybe many above). 

This probably means that the Canon R5 and other R Series cameras are also going to be extremely competitive for video as well as for stills. For the longest we've been ranting about Canon not having enough dynamic range, for stills or video, but I am guessing it's not just caught up with Sony, it's probably even beating it in many aspects.

If Canon can price their R Series reasonably, and not do the old Canon trick of disabling features, it could pose a serious threat to Sony and everyone else around. 

 

[Trankilstef]

Obviously Canon made improvements, they couldn't be as bad as they were. Just look at this quick test I made between my two camera bodies (Canon EOS R and Panasonic S1H).
Same settings (except I had to put iso 400 on eos r and iso 640 in S1h as I was shooting Log and compensate with aperture), same scene, 30 seconds apart.
Guess wich is wich. Easy to spot the bad highlights handling right? 😅
So much room in the highlights with the S1H compared to the Canon EOS R !! I really hope the R5 (or R6) would do better than this cause I'm very interested in it. DR will be the main selling point for me as I know the AF, the colors, the handling would be great. I just want improved DR and maybe I'd consider it over my S1H for video, to complement my EOS R wich serves me so well for stills.
 

[gt3rs]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

..the Sony costs significantly less also (as you mention).

For how long people will be paying the Canon-premium? Almost everything they have in the market is overpriced.

Only thing from Canon I happily overpaid for, was the last 70-200mm 4f. It is a great piece of equipment, nothing else justifies its price for me, especially after the recent releases in hybrids/cine cameras (they also have some very competitive dead cheap EF-S lenses that are ok).

The FX9 seem a very good camera but It cost less as it offer less.... the C500 II can do 6K RAW internal at 60 FF (zero crop) with DPAF, Sony caps at 4k 10bit 30fps FF or when they will ever release the firmware 4k 10bit? 60 fps Cropped ca. 1.25..... Not really the same.....

At 16K there is no camera that can do FF 60 FPS RAW internal with good AF 4k or above.... I would not call it overpriced. For most people in this forum yes but so is the FX9.... 

[Trankilstef]

4 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

The FX9 seem a very good camera but It cost less as it offer less.... the C500 II can do 6K RAW internal at 60 FF (zero crop) with DPAF, Sony caps at 4k 10bit 30fps FF or when they will ever release the firmware 4k 10bit? 60 fps Cropped ca. 1.25..... Not really the same.....

At 16K there is no camera that can do FF 60 FPS RAW internal with good AF 4k or above.... I would not call it overpriced. For most people in this forum yes but so is the FX9.... 

I feel the same. The Sony FX9 may be a very good camera, but I really think it can not be compared to the C500 mkII that is in the upper category for me. Sony FX9 is more comparable to the C300 line, and especially the next iteration of it that will be unveiled on monday.

[zerocool22]

is the canon R5 delayed as well due to corona? 

[Emanuel]

29 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

Guess wich is wich.
 

Canon, Panasonic.

29 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

Easy to spot the bad highlights handling right? 😅
So much room in the highlights with the S1H compared to the Canon EOS R !!

No DR to my guess, CS is. Did it without your help BTW ; -)

[HockeyFan12]

28 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

Obviously Canon made improvements, they couldn't be as bad as they were. Just look at this quick test I made between my two camera bodies (Canon EOS R and Panasonic S1H).
Same settings (except I had to put iso 400 on eos r and iso 640 in S1h as I was shooting Log and compensate with aperture), same scene, 30 seconds apart.
Guess wich is wich. Easy to spot the bad highlights handling right? 😅
So much room in the highlights with the S1H compared to the Canon EOS R !! I really hope the R5 (or R6) would do better than this cause I'm very interested in it. DR will be the main selling point for me as I know the AF, the colors, the handling would be great. I just want improved DR and maybe I'd consider it over my S1H for video, to complement my EOS R wich serves me so well for stills.
 

Highlight detail is so good on the S1H. On the S1, too. That camera is a sleeper. P6K is excellent, too.

To me the 2.1Gbps codec on the C500 Mk II would be too heavy to be pragmatic, regardless of image quality.

[Emanuel]

P6K is the most underrated camera over this forum ever! Hence why Andrew had the feel to open that thread to explain why : ) His personal experience should not interfere in our evaluation, though. A case study is not enough to provide science about ; -)

[Video Hummus]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

P6K is the most underrated camera over this forum ever! Hence why Andrew had the feel to open that thread to explain why : ) His personal experience should not interfere in our evaluation, though. A case study is not enough to provide science about ; -)

I would be pretty miffed if I got a defective or damage product. My trust of the brand would take a hit.

There is a conspiracy in the camera world. How is it that all of them can’t seem to get it right.

Panasonic can’t get their AF trustworthy. Sony Is allergic to 10-bit anything. Canon’s DR hasn’t been great and of course their schizophrenic cripple hammer and lack of 10-bit in anything sub $5K. FujiFilm, of all companies, has come around to having the best all-around camera for DSLM shooters since they released XT4 and even that has annoying niggles.

45 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

My iPhone 8 Plus screen can definitely see the difference in DR mapping of those two cameras. 

[Emanuel]

34 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

I would be pretty miffed if I got a defective or damage product. My trust of the brand would take a hit.

I'd probably never buy anything other from them once again, I guess, unless their customer service would give me an extra reason for.

Pretty stellar AFAIK, that is, from what I've heard in the opinion of some other end users.

Never had the need to call them so far in any of my Blackmagic gear or my associates' to whom I've had an important role promoting the brand among them, modesty aside.

 

Generalizations, especially negative ones, from personal experiences can mitigate how useful they can be IMO.

 

[Trankilstef]

4 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

My iPhone 8 Plus screen can definitely see the difference in DR mapping of those two cameras. 

Of course it's easy to spot the difference. My post aimed at demonstrating how big of a difference there is between the Canon eos R and Panasonic S1H sensors. 

Canon really need to up its game regarding sensors and dynamic range. 

 

[Video Hummus]

40 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

Of course it's easy to spot the difference.

My post was tongue and cheek about not being able to see a DR difference on screens.