What REALLY prompted Canon suddenly to get their act together with video?

[Super8]

2 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Offcourse they know, everybody knows, only your guys didnt know. 

I searched the EOS after this happened and couldn't find very much discussion about it.  It kinda seems like it's the 'let's don't talk about that issue" kinda thing.

[thebrothersthre3]

Just now, Super8 said:

I searched the EOS after this happened and couldn't find very much discussion about it.  It kinda seems like it's the 'let's don't talk about that issue" kinda thing.

I remember people thinking the P4K wouldn't need IR cut filters. Not sure if Blackmagic was saying that or what. Nothing is mentioned on the Official BMD Pocket 4k page. I think its less pronounced than on the URSA mini but you definitely still need it. Lots of stuff comes up on google about it.

[SteveV4D]

7 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I searched the EOS after this happened and couldn't find very much discussion about it.  It kinda seems like it's the 'let's don't talk about that issue" kinda thing.

I remember reading it a lot on the subject soon after the P4K was released.  So much so, I got myself an IR filter soon after my camera arrived in December 2018.  It was definitely talked about, with examples posted.  It's a well documented issue.

[Super8]

2 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Tell me how it is possible that you cannot see the IR pollution on the backscreen but you can on your computer.

They both had external monitors  They were pulling focus all day long.  I believe they had SmallHD's

[Super8]

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I remember people thinking the P4K wouldn't need IR cut filters. Not sure if Blackmagic was saying that or what. Nothing is mentioned on the Official BMD Pocket 4k page. I think its less pronounced than on the URSA mini but you definitely still need it. Lots of stuff comes up on google about it.

It's real. If you use a ND filter with the P4 or 6k's you need a IR cut filter.   It doesn't matter if it's stacked ND's or one ND you need a IR cut filter. 

[zerocool22]

14 minutes ago, Super8 said:

They both had external monitors  They were pulling focus all day long.  I believe they had SmallHD's

Remains the same, The IR is hitting the sensor so doesnt matter on what device you are monitoring. 

[HockeyFan12]

I've had similar IR issues with footage I've received from the Ursa mini but nothing as severe as the above with the P6k. @Super8 is right that by the time a colorist receives footage, it's rarely raw anymore, if it ever was. For instance any visual effects shots are going to be delivered in ProRes or DPX or something even if the project is shot in raw.

I expect the IR pollution shows up in the monitors but is lost in glare. I saw it happen on a Red MX shoot too, but not nearly as bad. It's a real problem. Pro ACs and operators can pull focus better than you, but they're not necessarily knowledgeable about prosumer video.

A few years ago I remember reading in ASC mag I think about a network series shooting Alexa in ProRes 422 1080p instead of HQ I think? As bad as your storage issues might be, imagine scaling them up across an entire series... A lot of the time amateurs and small post houses are way ahead of larger studios technically. You can afford to shoot raw. NBC can't. I suspect this has changed to an extent by now, of course, but it's worth considering what luxuries we're granted in different segments.

It's also true that raw isn't the same across cameras. Disregarding the potential for IR pollution, etc. different sensors have different noise levels and different chromaticities based on the dyes used. I worked with a DP who was on the ACES board or knew someone on it–or something–and manufacturers would send in data from their sensors. There're all sorts of differences between them. If I remember correctly, Red, for instance, had green and red chromasticities rather close with its early sensors, so you got ruddy foliage but then the Panavision DXL fixed this with software and you could grade it to mitigate it pretty well anyway. Apparently the C200-generation Canons have a special Bayer array to capture a much wider gamut than their predecessor so they can be used in BT2020 workflows. Granted, raw footage can be graded with more flexibility than raster in general, but raw footage isn't necessary as interchangeable across camera systems as would be ideal. Of course the whole point of ACES is to equalize things as best possible so it's not entirely hopeless matching cameras. But the raw signal from an Alexa is going to be way better and way more flexible than the raw signal from a less expensive camera. 

I forget what the original argument was. 

But amateurs have advantages larger studios don't in all aspects of production. I talked with a grip who'd worked on an Adam Sandler movie and they had these massive nets and 18K HMIs set up primarily so they wouldn't have to wait on cloud cover. Not even because it looked better, but because it was too expensive to wait. Chances are you can afford to wait on cloud cover. Or even wait until golden hour.

Likewise a GH5 will fit on a gimbal an Alexa rig won't. And on and on...

This might be a lesson to me more than anyone else, but I think it's worth mentioning: play to your strengths. You might have better luck with a Pocket 6k than Warner Brothers does. Everything I've seen from the Pocket 6K indicates it's the best price/performance around. It looks a lot like a 6K Alexa to me. That doesn't mean it's the best for every workflow by any means, though. One of the advantages of the Alexa is how easy it is to operate if you're someone who's used to shooting film. The menus are minimal and interface relatively simple.

[SteveV4D]

I'm not sure if I was large studio, I'd be sending people out with Pocket 6Ks, or relying on footage go be produced by people not well versed in  cameras strengths and weaknesses.  I would have thought such cameras were reserved for the amateurs and smaller Production companies. The self employed Video producers.  

Still it's one reason I prefer not to be a part of a large studio, I prefer the control to rest in me from start to finish.  I've always been that way.  But it probably does mean, I have the luxury to shoot and edit in RAW that some production companies don't have.  Though in my mind, I always felt they were more professional than that in their workflow.

 

[Super8]

2 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I'm not sure if I was large studio, I'd be sending people out with Pocket 6Ks, or relying on footage go be produced by people not well versed in  cameras strengths and weaknesses.  I would have thought such cameras were reserved for the amateurs and smaller Production companies. The self employed Video producers.  

Still it's one reason I prefer not to be a part of a large studio, I prefer the control to rest in me from start to finish.  I've always been that way.  But it probably does mean, I have the luxury to shoot and edit in RAW that some production companies don't have.  Though in my mind, I always felt they were more professional than that in their workflow.

 

Can I see the work that you shoot in RAW? A link or website?

59 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

 @Super8 is right that by the time a colorist receives footage, it's rarely raw anymore, if it ever was. For instance any visual effects shots are going to be delivered in ProRes or DPX or something even if the project is shot in raw.

Thanks @HockeyFan12

 

[Rinad Amir]

3 hours ago, Super8 said:

I agree.

Back to the Canon R5.  I will check in with my Canon contact and see when I can get my hands on a prototype for testing.

 

You woot mate 🙄😄😄😄

[Super8]

3 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I'm not sure if I was large studio, I'd be sending people out with Pocket 6Ks, or relying on footage go be produced by people not well versed in  cameras strengths and weaknesses.  I would have thought such cameras were reserved for the amateurs and smaller Production companies. The self employed Video producers.  

Still it's one reason I prefer not to be a part of a large studio, I prefer the control to rest in me from start to finish.  I've always been that way.  But it probably does mean, I have the luxury to shoot and edit in RAW that some production companies don't have.  Though in my mind, I always felt they were more professional than that in their workflow.

I used a high quality production company.  Like I said before, this company has REDs and about a $500,000 in gear. They just moved over to the P6K after it's release and had the 4k before that. They produce awesome work and are not rookies.

Depending on the job and budget Warner Bros. outsources work to production companies.

Way to much assuming going on and back handed comments being made.

1 minute ago, Rinad Amir said:

You woot mate 🙄😄😄😄

What is woot mate?

[thebrothersthre3]

The old Black Magic Cinema Camera (the 2.5K version) was used on Mad Max and that's an older less capable sensor. Of course it wasn't the A cam but it was used for some significant shots. They had the ND filter taped to the front of it for certain shots too lol. I don't think there are really any rules to what you can and cannot use. I am sure the project Super8 was working on is way smaller and lower budget than Fury Road. 

[SteveV4D]

32 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The old Black Magic Cinema Camera (the 2.5K version) was used on Mad Max and that's an older less capable sensor. Of course it wasn't the A cam but it was used for some significant shots. They had the ND filter taped to the front of it for certain shots too lol. I don't think there are really any rules to what you can and cannot use. I am sure the project Super8 was working on is way smaller and lower budget than Fury Road. 

Oh I know smaller cameras get used by large production companies.  Often because they are disposable or small enough to fit inside a narrow, tight space.  Maybe I'm just naive though to think such large production companies are not shooting with cameras they're not familiar with, and making rookie mistakes with them, but if you're playing with the sort of money some larger movies have, why risk any longer, more cinematic shots on a camera that costs a fraction of their Red or Alexa.  Sure for quick cutaways maybe. 

If the Canon 1DX Mark III is such a great camera for grading and colour, why bother with those pesky P4Ks and P6Ks, if you're a professional Production company using Reds.  I mean I like them, I use my P4K all the time, but boy, you have to rig them to hell to make them work, with extra battery, cage, monitor if its outdoors.  Better options are now out there for the sort of B shots needed these days, even compared to what was available when Mad Max Fury Road was being made.  10 bit in smaller mirrlorless cameras just didn't really exist then to the extent they are now.  So you can understand their choice.  Now an S1H with its timecode and Netflix approval, is a better choice for B camera for larger production companies.  Especially if none can be bothered to make good use of RAW.  Plus I'd wager the R5 will do just as well when released for those sort of jobs too.  It's being touted by Canon as a great B camera for their C300 and C500.

 

[thebrothersthre3]

37 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Oh I know smaller cameras get used by large production companies.  Often because they are disposable or small enough to fit inside a narrow, tight space.  Maybe I'm just naive though to think such large production companies are not shooting with cameras they're not familiar with, and making rookie mistakes with them, but if you're playing with the sort of money some larger movies have, why risk any longer, more cinematic shots on a camera that costs a fraction of their Red or Alexa.  Sure for quick cutaways maybe. 

If the Canon 1DX Mark III is such a great camera for grading and colour, why bother with those pesky P4Ks and P6Ks, if you're a professional Production company using Reds.  I mean I like them, I use my P4K all the time, but boy, you have to rig them to hell to make them work, with extra battery, cage, monitor if its outdoors.  Better options are now out there for the sort of B shots needed these days, even compared to what was available when Mad Max Fury Road was being made.  10 bit in smaller mirrorless cameras just didn't really exist then to the extent they are now.  So you can understand their choice.  Now an S1H with its timecode and Netflix approval, is a better choice for B camera for larger production companies.  Especially if none can be bothered to make good use of RAW.  Plus I'd wager the R5 will do just as well when released for those sort of jobs too.  It's being touted by Canon as a great B camera for their C300 and C500.

 

I think mistakes happen far more likely then we'd think. I tend to be a person who obsesses over every detail but not everyone is that way, and they still are able to make a living. 

I do agree its a rather large oversight. But lets consider that any other camera on the market doesn't have that issue (Sony, Panasonic, RED, Arri). So if you are used to just grabbing a camera and expecting a good image it would be understandable. Although after looking into the older RED models they also had IR pollution issues. So maybe its less excusable lol

[Super8]

3 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I think mistakes happen far more likely then we'd think. I tend to be a person who obsesses over every detail but not everyone is that way, and they still are able to make a living. 

I do agree its a rather large oversight. But lets consider that any other camera on the market doesn't have that issue (Sony, Panasonic, RED, Arri). So if you are used to just grabbing a camera and expecting a good image it would be understandable. Although after looking into the older RED models they also had IR pollution issues. So maybe its less excusable lol

You bring up valid points. IR pollution is an issue with Black Magic cameras.

I've hired DP's that have worked on Netflix shows and Disney mega blockbusters.  On my crew they were DP's and on the Netflix and Disney shows they were not. But they sill worked on my crew and I still directed them and hired them. 

@HockeyFan12 when he said you get a camera and play to it's strengths. Every-time I hire a DP I ask them what camera they prefer to work with.  We work together based on the budget and we get the job done.  Now, budget is key and what guys are used to working with on big budgets can't always happen on my sets.  But the key is creating the best deliverable that we can.

Old school DP's are having to learn new cameras or get left behind. The FS7 is not always practical and doesn't give the best image based on cost. I don't have an issue working with the P6K again but I'm going to have to do test. 

The R5 will be able to shoot RAW and have IBIS and Canon color with AF.  This will destroy the P6k on set and what you can pull off in a days shoot. 

[noone]

54 minutes ago, Super8 said:

.  This will destroy the P6k on set and what you can pull off in a days shoot. 

AAANNDDD there you go again!

[Super8]

20 minutes ago, noone said:

AAANNDDD there you go again!

AAAANNDDD you didn't read my comment did you?

Why are you so guick to pull the trigger and attack.  

I said  "what you can pull off in a days shoot." 

Meaning you can capture more footage in a days time.  A days time is a shoot day.  More specific an 8 hour day with lunch and anything over ten hours is additional pay.

With Canon's AF and IBIS, you will be able to capture more footage, more scripted shots, than you can with the P6K or P4K. 

Why?  AF is faster than the missed A cam operator focus.  

IBIS on a gimbal gives you more freedom and lighter gear, which allows you to have steadier footage.

 

[noone]

8 minutes ago, Super8 said:

AAAANNDDD you didn't read my comment did you?

Why are you so guick to pull the trigger and attack.  

I said  "what you can pull off in a days shoot." 

Meaning you can capture more footage in a days time.  A days time is a shoot day.  More specific an 8 hour day with lunch and anything over ten hours is additional pay.

With Canon's AF and IBIS, you will be able to capture more footage, more scripted shots, than you can with the P6K or P4K. 

Why?  AF is faster than the missed A cam operator focus.  

IBIS on a gimbal gives you more freedom and lighter gear, which allows you to have steadier footage.

 

Oh I read them, you just confirmed to me you are either a very low level Canon paid shill or a young Canon fanboy.    No matter, carry on.

[Rinad Amir]

37 minutes ago, noone said:

Oh I read them, you just confirmed to me you are either a very low level Canon paid shill or a young Canon fanboy.    No matter, carry on.

I know right its fun to read his fantasy theorys 

In this harsh times we need people like him for entertaiment. As Noone said please carry on 😄

[Super8]

27 minutes ago, Rinad Amir said:

I know right its fun to read his fantasy theorys 

In this harsh times we need people like him for entertaiment. As Noone said please carry on 😄

I've been on real shoots with real clients using the P6K and a smaller AF, IBIS, RAW capable full frame mirror-less camera and the full frame mirror-less camera out performed the P6K every-time.  It wasn't about color either. It was about getting the shot in action oriented scripted conditions.  It's not a knock on the P6K but it is against manual cine cameras. They slow the process down by 40%.

If the R5 lives up to the specs and can perform like Cinema B-cam like Canon says, then it will be a great camera. For $1,995 the P6K is an incredible camera.