What REALLY prompted Canon suddenly to get their act together with video?

[mkabi]

13 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

While point #1 seems to be acted based on recent releases (1Dx3, 24p firmware update, etc.), I'm still curious about how Canon would leapfrog the current state of art camera like the S1H than can't even do full frame 4k60 on a smaller sensor implemented on a fan cooled body.

 

As we are all curious... I’m sure there is a “gotchya” protocol somewhere in all of this...

But at the same time, you can’t compare Panasonic who was probably looking at Canon going okay... “We should probably stay one step ahead of them because they are number 1 on the ILC camera market... so let’s have 6K... blah blah blah”

Meanwhile, Canon was probably was saying okay... “We number 1, let’s maintain that while spending little money to put out garbage for the next 10 years... minor updates here and there” contingency plan “let’s have a separate underground mad science lab that will give us something so unimaginable that when we put it out in 10 to 15 years... we maintain another 10 years while the rest of them catch up”

Remember this from 2016:

https://***URL not allowed***/look-canons-crazy-8k-camera-prototype/

I bet you it’s going to be some crazy bit rate something like 2000 Mbps or more that  they probably said to themselves you need 1TB cfexpress card to record 10 min. so they would probably have to turn off the camera to change cards... overheating solved. Plus no one can afford multiple 1TB cards... bonus!

 

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Choice-supportive bias. But you can buy almost any camera today and get excellent results with a skill. So skill is what matters.

You can still lose shots because of the camera no matter your skill, or choose one you dislike and that doesn't inspire you to shoot. But anyway, that's a matter for a different topic.

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Andrew, are you still working on SL2 stuff?

Yes. But it has a major flaw. The battery really screws you over in 4K and it's such a serious design fault, it's impossible to recommend the SL2 for paid video work (no matter how skillful you are!!) Blog post soon

[BTM_Pix]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes. But it has a major flaw. The battery really screws you over in 4K and it's such a serious design fault, it's impossible to recommend the SL2 for paid video work (no matter how skillful you are!!) Blog post soon

From what I can gather, it can be externally powered with a power bank as long as it is USB-C PD spec like this one.

Hardly ideal but worth a go for 12 quid ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/10000mAh-Portable-External-Delivery-Compatible/dp/B07ZPP6R1K

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, OliKMIA said:

 

Cxxx cameras have never been cutting edge when it comes to pure specs, resolution and frame rate.

 

They usually lead in with Canon's newest processors though, and that tells you what to expect from the next generation of stills processors which in turn tells what the specs might be. What other manufacturers are doing is irrelevant when it comes to that prediction.

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

 

I bet you it’s going to be some crazy bit rate something like 2000 Mbps or more that  they probably said to themselves you need 1TB cfexpress card to record 10 min. so they would probably have to turn off the camera to change cards... overheating solved. Plus no one can afford multiple 1TB cards... bonus!

 

It will probably be something like up to 800 mbps for the 8K H.265 encoded footage recorded at the highest quality setting. 

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, padam said:

This camera is recording 8K without any downscaling from a next generation sensor using a next generation processor.
Is that really such a huge challenge in terms of processing power if the CFExpress can handle the speed required to transfer the data? Same with the H265 8K encoding, provided the hardware specifically supports it.
I am not sure about full sensor 4K (what if it is binned in all 4K modes to be great at rolling shutter) but at least it is at the ideal downsampling size compared to 6K.
 

Yes it is. The problem is not so much in the actual processing, but the heat generated by the processor while doing it. This is the reason why dedicated video cameras (which have fans to cool the processor) can do more than stills cameras even when using the same processor.

If they are able to achieve these specs in the EOS-R body, then Canon clearly have a next gen processor that probably has more processing power, but (more importantly) is MUCH more thermally efficient (likely a smaller node process together with a redesigned logic structure). Those two things combined would enable them to make a huge leap forward in terms of video specs and overall capability.

[mkabi]

5 hours ago, Mokara said:

It will probably be something like up to 800 mbps for the 8K H.265 encoded footage recorded at the highest quality setting. 

I don't know.... may be IPB....

I was just joking but after looking at the data rate table here:

https://www.eoshd.com/canon/canon-1d-x-mark-iii-finally-canon-get-serious-about-dslr-video/#more-21068

It could pretty much be real???

[Yurolov]

Putting aside specs and technical achievements, has any DSLR or mirrorless camera ever come close to giving as cinematic image as the 1Dc. Is that not what we are concerned with here. Has any other Canon camera period? That camera is going on 8 years old. The tech was there and still is but they haven't bothered repurposing it after the failure of the 1dc. Just give us that mojo in a small package with useable codec and dual pixel. 

[Cliff Totten]

On 4/24/2020 at 4:00 PM, Mokara said:

Yes it is. The problem is not so much in the actual processing, but the heat generated by the processor while doing it. This is the reason why dedicated video cameras (which have fans to cool the processor) can do more than stills cameras even when using the same processor.

If they are able to achieve these specs in the EOS-R body, then Canon clearly have a next gen processor that probably has more processing power, but (more importantly) is MUCH more thermally efficient (likely a smaller node process together with a redesigned logic structure). Those two things combined would enable them to make a huge leap forward in terms of video specs and overall capability.

Its not just the processor that needs cooling. Reading out a large sensor in 8k at 30+fps will heat that sensor up...big time. Its going to suck amps galore and get really hot. Sony often clocks their sensor readouts down to keep them cooler in small passive Alpha bodies. A fast clocked 15 millisecond readout in 8k 30p....in a passive cooled body?...no damn way!!!  That sensor will be clocked at 35-45 milliseconds and will jello-o like crazy. Even THEN,  it's still going to get hot. I'm betting on 8k clips no longer than 5 min and a required cool down in between clips. 4k?....be ready for pixel binning/line skipping and a forced 29 minute recording limit. You guys wait and see....the "Canon Cripple Hammer" is alive and well. They have to also make the Cine EOS managers happy too. 

And please.....nobody tell me; "Canon Cine EOS managers have ZERO concern for anything that an R5 has to offer"  or "The R5 doesn't compete with the C200 or C300 so Cine EOS managers don't even pay attention to the R5 because they are two different markets"

Oh...they care and the have a lot to say about how the R5 should be "properly" crippled.

[padam]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its not just the processor that needs cooling. Reading out a large sensor in 8k at 30+fps will heat that sensor up...big time. Its going to suck amps galore and get really hot. Sony often clocks their sensor readouts down to keep them cooler in small passive Alpha bodies. A fast clocked 15 millisecond readout in 8k 30p....in a passive cooled body?...no damn way!!!  That sensor will be clocked at 35-45 milliseconds and will jello-o like crazy. Even THEN,  it's still going to get hot. I'm betting on 8k clips no longer than 5 min and a required cool down in between clips. 4k?....be ready for pixel binning/line skipping and a forced 29 minute recording limit. You guys wait and see....the "Canon Cripple Hammer" is alive and well. They have to also make the Cine EOS managers happy too. 

And please.....nobody tell me; "Canon Cine EOS managers have ZERO concern for anything that an R5 has to offer"  or "The R5 doesn't compete with the C200 or C300 so Cine EOS managers don't even pay attention to the R5 because they are two different markets"

Oh...they care and the have a lot to say about how the R5 should be "properly" crippled.

While I agree about the rolling shutter, there is too much moaning here about other things.

It is the first 8K non-cinema camera, which is also an up-to-date mirrorless camera, with plenty of great features, full stop.

And there will be no extreme price premium, like it was with a 1DC (and think of it what else it could do, besides being a 1DX shooting MJPEG 4k25p with a crop and no AF or a sharp 1080p mode in S35mm crop mode, a 'fake'  upscaled 1080p 60p, and all this without a time limit...not much)

(Yes in the future it might be usable as a B-cam next to an 8K cinema camera costing many times more.) Let's just see when there is going to be another one, they will be facing the exact same challenges.

It a stills camera that has some serious video capabilities allowed by today's technological advancements, but it's never going to be perfect. Do most of the potential buyers of this camera want a huge body at all times (instead of an optional battery grip) with an active fan to continuously cool down the sensor and kill the battery life? I really don't think so.
Could they do a camera more focused on video? Yes, probably, and it won't be a full-fledged stills camera anymore and it would cost even more money.
They have obviously considered heat when designing this camera, which is clearly bigger in dimensions than a Sony, so it has more room for things like a heatsink, and it is likely that the LP-E6NH will have less heat build-up as well, new processor, etc.
This camera was not designed for long recording times in the first place. But the option is probably there to use the external recorder and bypass that limit up to 4k60p.

I am more interested in the R6, since I do think they could cripple that camera much harder if they are pricing it more aggressively.


Oh, one important thing I forgot: codecs.

Yes it is not a RED with variable compression RAW, but it gives a lot of options:
You can shoot highly compressed onto SD cards (yes, processor intensive, but it still still superb to have that option)
But also, you can also shoot higher bitrates and RAW to CFExpress.

And this is all 10-bit internal (the Panasonic S1 or Nikon Z6 for instance, do not utilise the power of CFExpress)
So other cameras don't offer the same level of flexibility (it is either this, or that), the 1DX Mark II in particular, a popular stills camera for video, has just been outclassed in this regard.

[Mokara]

3 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its not just the processor that needs cooling. Reading out a large sensor in 8k at 30+fps will heat that sensor up...big time. Its going to suck amps galore and get really hot. Sony often clocks their sensor readouts down to keep them cooler in small passive Alpha bodies. A fast clocked 15 millisecond readout in 8k 30p....in a passive cooled body?...no damn way!!!  That sensor will be clocked at 35-45 milliseconds and will jello-o like crazy. Even THEN,  it's still going to get hot. I'm betting on 8k clips no longer than 5 min and a required cool down in between clips. 4k?....be ready for pixel binning/line skipping and a forced 29 minute recording limit. You guys wait and see....the "Canon Cripple Hammer" is alive and well. They have to also make the Cine EOS managers happy too. 

And please.....nobody tell me; "Canon Cine EOS managers have ZERO concern for anything that an R5 has to offer"  or "The R5 doesn't compete with the C200 or C300 so Cine EOS managers don't even pay attention to the R5 because they are two different markets"

Oh...they care and the have a lot to say about how the R5 should be "properly" crippled.

The overheating comes from the processor. The sensor is operating constantly when the camera is on, it is not overheating. This is not a DSLR, it is a MILC.

Overheating happens when you start recording, and the source of that heat is the processor which is doing processing/compression of the data coming off the sensor. That is what generates the heat. 

[Mokara]

On 4/24/2020 at 6:38 PM, mkabi said:

I don't know.... may be IPB....

I was just joking but after looking at the data rate table here:

https://www.eoshd.com/canon/canon-1d-x-mark-iii-finally-canon-get-serious-about-dslr-video/#more-21068

It could pretty much be real???

The 1DXM3 appears to have it's own special processor though, I suspect the R5 will have a newer one similar to the DV7. It does have H.265 recording, so possibly a version of Digic 8 with a H.265 encoder included. Otherwise it doesn't make sense that the R5 would outperform the 1DXM3.

[Franco]

A a Canon owner of the 1DC faithfully for a long time, I am super excited to see this announcement. Honestly been working with the S1H often now in 4K 60P Vlog and that would be the camera I stack the specs up against for me to see if I can stay with Canon long term. I wonder if this DSLR can make the Netflix approval list as well for new buyers entering the field making a first large purpose this matters. Not me I am an older dude lol 

 

 

 

 

 

[wideangle360]

It is nice to see this refocus from Canon..... but 10 years later....for me it comes too late. Their absence since 5D mk ii had me invest in GH4, then GH5 and GH5s. I am now semi retired and won't change my video gear, because I don't need to. What I do need is a great full frame mirrorless camera for my own photography and some gigs, and I don't want to pay for all the R&D and tech going into the EOS R. Will have to wait and see what they offer.

[gt3rs]

2 hours ago, Franco said:

A a Canon owner of the 1DC faithfully for a long time, I am super excited to see this announcement. Honestly been working with the S1H often now in 4K 60P Vlog and that would be the camera I stack the specs up against for me to see if I can stay with Canon long term. I wonder if this DSLR can make the Netflix approval list as well for new buyers entering the field making a first large purpose this matters. Not me I am an older dude lol 

 

 

 

 

 

No Time Code input no Netflix. Even the C200 is not there due to this.

[IronFilm]

38 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

No Time Code input no Netflix. Even the C200 is not there due to this.

Yet the Panasonic S1H DOES have a timecode input!

[gt3rs]

44 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yet the Panasonic S1H DOES have a timecode input!

Yes this is why S1H is there and C200 not

[Super8]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:21 PM, rawshooter said:

The question is: Who actually needs 8K? Sports broadcasters, nature documentarists - maybe. 

I think @Andrew Reid wrote here some time ago that we already have enough (or even too much) resolution with today's cameras when filmic images are the goal.

Beyond that, you're rather getting problems because you see every pimple on the face of your protagonist, because you can no longer film hand-held (since motion blur will kill your 8K resolution - it already kills 4K), because your 8K will only be visible with deep focus/depth of field (since shallow depth of field will blur out 90% of your 8K).

So in order to make actual use of 8K, you'll easily end up shooting boring, static, oversharp and flat video images like in the bad old camcorder days...

There's a reason why Arri never went beyond 2.8K on the Alexa's s35 sensors and even kept the full frame sensor of the Alexa LF at 4.4K (much less than even the 6K/24 MP prosumer Sony full frame sensors)...

So of whom did Canon think as the target buyer for this camera? "Us", or some journalists who need a hybrid camera to deliver both hi-res stills and 8K video to their employers?

Again, I don't wanna spoil anyone's enthusiasm, but just temper expectations before we get to see and test the real thing.

 2k, 4k, 6k and 8k resolutions are for bigger displays and not pixel pepping at 100% on smaller displays.

As camera / sensor makers move into higher resolutions it unlocks better frame rates at lower resolutions. The great thing about the R5 is that it will be able to record better 4K than anything we have in the current market (non cine)with ease and this includes higher frame rates.  It's not just about 4k 60p 10bit but how good it records at those specs.

I think Canon recognized the gap in the market and decided to provide a solution.

Canon produces great color and knows the cinema market.  I think this is a great move by Canon and we win because of it.

 

 

[Super8]

13 hours ago, wideangle360 said:

I don't want to pay for all the R&D and tech going into the EOS R. Will have to wait and see what they offer.

What does that mean? The same R&D that went into the EOS R will be use on the R5 just like the R&D that went into the Z6 will be used for the next camera from Nikon.  We don't have a lot of choices in full frame mirrorless outside of Sony and I wish Sony put a lot more R&D into it's color science and I might have been brand loyal to them. LOL.

[Super8]

On 4/26/2020 at 2:06 AM, Cliff Totten said:

I'm betting on 8k clips no longer than 5 min and a required cool down in between clips. 4k?....be ready for pixel binning/line skipping and a forced 29 minute recording limit. You guys wait and see....the "Canon Cripple Hammer" is alive and well. They have to also make the Cine EOS managers happy too. 

And please.....nobody tell me; "Canon Cine EOS managers have ZERO concern for anything that an R5 has to offer"  or "The R5 doesn't compete with the C200 or C300 so Cine EOS managers don't even pay attention to the R5 because they are two different markets"

Oh...they care and the have a lot to say about how the R5 should be "properly" crippled.

Are you that pixel binning guy?

As for your Canon Cine comment goes: "I'm testing Canon gear right now and the same Cine or Photography gear or anything in-between comes from the same source."

The R5 will probably be priced a little higher than the S1H and with the specs it's carrying for video, you could say the R5 would fit perfectly on any high end cine production that uses Canon cine gear. Canon wins the startup cinematographers,  the indie group and the BMP4k and 6k group that need to step up and away from BM dreadful crippled pocket line up.