What REALLY prompted Canon suddenly to get their act together with video?

[Simon Young]

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

As camera / sensor makers move into higher resolutions it unlocks better frame rates at lower resolutions. The great thing about the R5 is that it will be able to record better 4K than anything we have in the current market (non cine)with ease and this includes higher frame rates.

Interesting. Tell me more about this please. How will the R5 have better 4K than the Panasonics, for example, apart from the supposed frame rates?

[Django]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:06 AM, Cliff Totten said:

Its not just the processor that needs cooling. Reading out a large sensor in 8k at 30+fps will heat that sensor up...big time. Its going to suck amps galore and get really hot. Sony often clocks their sensor readouts down to keep them cooler in small passive Alpha bodies. A fast clocked 15 millisecond readout in 8k 30p....in a passive cooled body?...no damn way!!!  That sensor will be clocked at 35-45 milliseconds and will jello-o like crazy. Even THEN,  it's still going to get hot. I'm betting on 8k clips no longer than 5 min and a required cool down in between clips. 4k?....be ready for pixel binning/line skipping and a forced 29 minute recording limit. You guys wait and see....the "Canon Cripple Hammer" is alive and well. They have to also make the Cine EOS managers happy too. 

And please.....nobody tell me; "Canon Cine EOS managers have ZERO concern for anything that an R5 has to offer"  or "The R5 doesn't compete with the C200 or C300 so Cine EOS managers don't even pay attention to the R5 because they are two different markets"

Oh...they care and the have a lot to say about how the R5 should be "properly" crippled.

You seem awfully sure of your predictions. Almost like some of you are strangely anxious to see such limitations arrive.

Against that train of thought I have one model name: 1DX mark 3.

5.5K Raw, 4K60P. FF. No crop. Full pixel readout. 10-bit. Passive cooled body.

In a few ways that camera already surpasses the C200 / C300 mk II specs.

Clearly Canon are changing strategies. They are maxing out their flagship DSLR/MILC range. Even if those limitations you speak about exist, they will basically be law of physics limitations. I don't see how that could possibly be considered pulling a "cripple hammer"?

They just announced a bunch of updates for their cine line too btw:

Canon U.S.A. Announces a Host of Firmware Updates for Professional Imaging Products

Looks like instead of crippling their consumer cams they are now looking to upgrade their cine range specs.

Surprising to finally see SDI + HDMI support on the C200. I'm really hoping they go all the way and unlock 10-bit codec.

[BTM_Pix]

I thought "Worldwide Plague" would be the winner but whoever had "The Pentagon Will Release Footage Of UFOs" in the "Things That Will Happen Before Canon Release An 8K RAW DSLR" sweepstake is sitting pretty this morning.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Django said:

In a few ways that camera already surpasses the C200 / C300 mk II specs.

Yes, in some ways the  1DX mark 3 does. 

But in terms of I/O? The  1DX mark 3 doesn't come even vaguely close a C300mk2

1 hour ago, Django said:

Surprising to finally see SDI + HDMI support on the C200. I'm really hoping they go all the way and unlock 10-bit codec.

That's a classic example of how they'd cripple their lower end cameras!

(heck, even the C300mk2 had similar issues too)

 

37 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I thought "Worldwide Plague" would be the winner but whoever had "The Pentagon Will Release Footage Of UFOs" in the "Things That Will Happen Before Canon Release An 8K RAW DSLR" sweepstake is sitting pretty this morning.

Perhaps all these events are connected? 
What better time to release UFO footage than during the COVID-19 pandemic. 

[Django]

9 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, in some ways the  1DX mark 3 does. 

But in terms of I/O? The  1DX mark 3 doesn't come even vaguely close a C300mk2

That's a classic example of how they'd cripple their lower end cameras!

(heck, even the C300mk2 had similar issues too)

 

In terms of I/O, EVF, Ergonomics, ND, exposure tools, LUT support, battery life ..etc any dedicated cine cam obviously crushes a sports DSLR or even a MILC!

I think that's pretty obvious. The news here is that on resolution, codecs and HFR.. Canon is not only no longer putting out inferior specs but superior ones in some instances which is quite surprising.

I have no doubt that Dynamic Range & Rolling Shutter will still be on top of the cine side. But still I don't think many saw this coming, especially from Canon. 

I'm also glad they're starting to unlock their "lower end" cine cams. Also a sign they are shifting strategies for the better.

[ade towell]

2 hours ago, Django said:

Surprising to finally see SDI + HDMI support on the C200. I'm really hoping they go all the way and unlock 10-bit codec.

This would be a great move and I think create a whole new buzz about the C200, at £5800 new it is still too high for a camera without a middle codec and I would prefer the Panasonic EVA - but 10 bit would make a return to Canon more interesting for me. I have no interest in 8k of the R5 but would spend that kind of money on a used proper cine/video camera

[Mako Sports]

They might be saving a 10 bit only camera for the C100mk3.

4K 24 - 4K 60 10 bit 422

1080 24 - 1080 120fps 10 bit 422

No SDI

No raw internal

13 - 14 stop sensor

Not modular like the c500mkii/c300mkiii

Built on the same chassis as the C100mkii

$4500

[ade towell]

That would work for me. Be interesting to see what the Sony fx6 offers

[gt3rs]

21 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

They might be saving a 10 bit only camera for the C100mk3.

4K 24 - 4K 60 10 bit 422

1080 24 - 1080 120fps 10 bit 422

No SDI

No raw internal

13 - 14 stop sensor

Not modular like the c500mkii/c300mkiii

Built on the same chassis as the C100mkii

$4500

I think they should have a FW with middle codec on the C200 and 1 year from now it will be at that price level.... why crating a new model, new manual, new accessories etc... for a C200 without RAW but with 10bit make not too much sense in term of R&D..... Only point to do a new model is for whatever reason the HW of C200 cannot do  4k10bit in whatever codec....

 

[SteveV4D]

8 hours ago, Super8 said:

Canon wins the startup cinematographers,  the indie group and the BMP4k and 6k group that need to step up and away from BM dreadful crippled pocket line up.

 

 

It'll take more than Canons R5 to make me want to part ways with my Pocket 4K.. 😄 I'm even considering buying the 6K, now its price has dropped.

However fair play to Canon for upping their game.  It's about time and can only benefit the video industry.  

I'm not interested in 8K and even 4K 120p doesn't excite me too much.  I'd might be interested in the R6, but I wonder if Canon will take away too much from the R5. 

I've found some of Canon's choices of what they include and don't include in their products just so bizarre.  It often feels that with their choices, the developers are throwing pieces of paper with specs written on them to a box at the centre of a team meeting table.  If it goes into the box, its included, if not, they leave it out.  Maybe with the R5, everyone just had better aim that day.

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

It'll take more than Canons R5 to make me want to part ways with my Pocket 4K.. 😄 I'm even considering buying the 6K, now its price has dropped.

However fair play to Canon for upping their game.  It's about time and can only benefit the video industry.  

I'm not interested in 8K and even 4K 120p doesn't excite me too much.  I'd might be interested in the R6, but I wonder if Canon will take away too much from the R5. 

I've found some of Canon's choices of what they include and don't include in their products just so bizarre.  It often feels that with their choices, the developers are throwing pieces of paper with specs written on them to a box at the centre of a team meeting table.  If it goes into the box, its included, if not, they leave it out.  Maybe with the R5, everyone just had better aim that day.

I said something similar on the Pocket thread, I do consider buying the 6K, but I do not see a hybrid as directly compared to, even a Pocket, "cine" camera.

A hybrid is an instrument for taking both photos and video, and selling a P4K (for how much?750$?) maybe isn't worth the hassle for such a little price.

I would like a C100mkIII, or the rumored XC style RF camera, a small dedicated video tool. The C200 is not very convinient in design, and/or size.

In no way I can see myself using 8K any time soon, 6K, maybe for resizing and reframing, even that is too much work, and I just bought a brand new - expensive - workstation..

 

[Super8]

3 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

It'll take more than Canons R5 to make me want to part ways with my Pocket 4K.. 😄 I'm even considering buying the 6K, now its price has dropped.

However fair play to Canon for upping their game.  It's about time and can only benefit the video industry.  

I'm not interested in 8K and even 4K 120p doesn't excite me too much.  I'd might be interested in the R6, but I wonder if Canon will take away too much from the R5. 

I've found some of Canon's choices of what they include and don't include in their products just so bizarre.  It often feels that with their choices, the developers are throwing pieces of paper with specs written on them to a box at the centre of a team meeting table.  If it goes into the box, its included, if not, they leave it out.  Maybe with the R5, everyone just had better aim that day.

Why would the R6 interest you?

Not sure why people are making such negative smarty comments about Canon?  I had some major issues with BMP6K and ND filter IR pollution.  BM color is atrocious when it misses the mark and not dialed in properly. Don't expose 2 stop over and IR pollution is a big issue.  I honestly think BMP6K is moving into Sony color land when not shot properly or with ND filter.  

Canon have the magic sauce with color science. If you've spent time color correcting various footage from RED, Arri, BM, Canon, etc then you know where cameras fall in regards to color and how they treat color. Right now BMP6K can't be trusted and Canon can.

Have you looked at BlackMagic's product page full of specs?

 

 

 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, Django said:

In terms of I/O, EVF, Ergonomics, ND, exposure tools, LUT support, battery life ..etc any dedicated cine cam obviously crushes a sports DSLR or even a MILC!

Only starting to scratch the surface here of better I/O with the C300mk2 with what you mentioned, some more major points: TC / genlock, rec trigger / LANC, SDI / full size HDMI , DC power

  

4 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

They might be saving a 10 bit only camera for the C100mk3.

My gut guess is that the C200 has replaced the "C100mk3" for now. 

Especially if the C200 gets another $1K price drop early in 2021
(the C200 is already, with its new price, now priced the same as the C100mk2 was at its launch)

  

4 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

$4500

See, that's only $1K away from the current C200 price!

[Super8]

9 hours ago, Simon Young said:

Interesting. Tell me more about this please. How will the R5 have better 4K than the Panasonics, for example, apart from the supposed frame rates?

Sure. Canon color, better motion cadence, better IBIS, better placed dynamic range and better lens selection gives you a better image. Who do you trust to give you a better image? Canon or Panasonic.  Oh, and I forgot to mention the Canon 4K will be in focus. LOL

[ade towell]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Not as much buzz as if they put 10bit into the C200!

That's exactly what I meant

[ade towell]

11 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Sure. Canon color, better motion cadence, better IBIS, better placed dynamic range 

Colour is subjective (I actually prefer Panasonic colour science since EVA, S1 etc), the rest of these you're just guessing, IBIS and DR of the S1, SH1 are going to be hard to beat.

Hope you're right as progress benefits all of us but your Canon love in and trashing of the BM Pocket is a little OTT

[Michael Steiner]

3 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

It often feels that with their choices, the developers are throwing pieces of paper with specs written on them to a box at the centre of a team meeting table.  If it goes into the box, its included, if not, they leave it out.  Maybe with the R5, everyone just had better aim that day.

Ha, that sounds kind of plausible. They got some throwing-practice in the last few years and are now masters of that craft 😂

35 minutes ago, Super8 said:

better motion cadence

I always wonder what people refer to when writing about motion cadence. Is that a real, measurable thing? Sounds more like something esoteric...

[thebrothersthre3]

13 minutes ago, Michi said:

I always wonder what people refer to when writing about motion cadence. Is that a real, measurable thing? Sounds more like something esoteric...

I have no clue. Some say it has to do with rolling shutter but I've heard some say a camera with much higher RS than another has better motion cadence. I've also heard people say a camera has great motion while another person says it looks bad. So who the hell knows imo

[Django]

I'm honestly thinking about dropping my C200. Can't really justify keeping it alongside the FS7 in the current climate (even though on CS, ergonomics, DPAF & RAW capabilities it crushes the FS7). I'm holding small hope for a middle codec but if not it'll be up for sale soon which really bums me out.. 😒

[thebrothersthre3]

15 minutes ago, Django said:

I'm honestly thinking about dropping my C200. Can't really justify keeping it alongside the FS7 in the current climate (even though on CS, ergonomics, DPAF & RAW capabilities it crushes the FS7). I'm holding small hope for a middle codec but if not it'll be up for sale soon which really bums me out.. 😒

Kind of off topic but do you know if the C200 RAW is log or linear?