What REALLY prompted Canon suddenly to get their act together with video?

[Super8]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yes the colors in that video are very nice. Would certainly be nice to see other cameras performing in the same setting though. 

But if we are talking about consistency throughout the ISO range as well as under and over exposing(which Arri is known for keeping consistent colors when under and over exposed) this video doesn't really showcase anything. 

https://***URL not allowed***/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/

In regards to the Pocket 6k though, the tests cinema 5d did seem to indicate that the Pocket 6k has pretty nice latitude at least when under exposed. I've never underexposed the S1H to this degree but seeing as you have some experience with its latitude do you think it would fare as well as the Pocket 6k?

I would say the video does show the complete dynamic range from latest to darkest. Not how many stops but from light to dark.

Look in the mid to dark shadows and what do you see?  You see good color rendition, you see actually color choices in the shadows that don't get muddy or dull. You have separation or color and separation of reflective color.  Can you tell what color is in the mid shadows and darker shadows.  

If you go the other way, you can tell how the lighter areas react to color. 

I like the latitude you have with the P6K and think it's great.  I am seeing a lot of issues with color that doesn't play well across the board with the P6K.  

[thebrothersthre3]

28 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I would say the video does show the complete dynamic range from latest to darkest. Not how many stops but from light to dark.

Look in the mid to dark shadows and what do you see?  You see good color rendition, you see actually color choices in the shadows that don't get muddy or dull. You have separation or color and separation of reflective color.  Can you tell what color is in the mid shadows and darker shadows.  

If you go the other way, you can tell how the lighter areas react to color. 

I like the latitude you have with the P6K and think it's great.  I am seeing a lot of issues with color that doesn't play well across the board with the P6K.  

Ah I thought you were talking about color shifts often seen when you shoot at higher ISO's on many cameras, or color shifts when raising under exposed footage. 

[Super8]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Ah I thought you were talking about color shifts often seen when you shoot at higher ISO's on many cameras, or color shifts when raising under exposed footage. 

That's part of what I was talking about.  I mentioned this. 

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, Super8 said:

You start with best color over all.  Why wouldn't this be the goal? 

Never said that isn't the goal. 
But what is "best", how do you judge that? How do you assign a number to this, or is it just your subjective opinion?? (and is "best" a universal truth that is always true under all conditions? Or does the truth of what is "best" vary from project to project?)

Yes, I'm sure if every production could shoot on an ARRI then they would! But often there are budget/time/workflow considerations which prevent that. 

How then do you determine which out of say Panasonic Varicam LT vs Sony FX9 has "best"? How do you determine which out of Panasonic S1H vs Kinefinity Terra 6K has "best"?

 

[Super8]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Never said that isn't the goal. 
But what is "best", how do you judge that? How do you assign a number to this, or is it just your subjective opinion?? (and is "best" a universal truth that is always true under all conditions? Or does the truth of what is "best" vary from project to project?)

Yes, I'm sure if every production could shoot on an ARRI then they would! But often there are budget/time/workflow considerations which prevent that. 

How then do you determine which out of say Panasonic Varicam LT vs Sony FX9 has "best"? How do you determine which out of Panasonic S1H vs Kinefinity Terra 6K has "best"?

 

I determine who has the best color on real world production but my own experience and research.  Colorist get paid for a reason, not only do they move color but they have to have an eye for color.

 

 

Here's 3 videos.  The BMP6K looks horrible but people defend it and say that the color is great.  They don't know what they don't know and they accept bad color quality.

The Sony Venice has ok color but it looks painted on, looks fake and lost color depth and value. 

 

[thebrothersthre3]

That is the Ursa Mini 4.6k, completely different sensor from the Pocket 6k.

Its a little hard to take you seriously when you say the Sony Venice looks like its colors are painted on. You aren't just arguing against people online when you say that, you are saying the people who engineered it must have had no idea what they are doing as well as the productions that use it. 
 

 

[Super8]

Here's Canon C500 vs BMP6K

This shows just how far off the BMP6k color performance is compared to Canon color science.  

 

 

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

That is the Ursa Mini 4.6k, completely different sensor from the Pocket 6k.

Its a little hard to take you seriously when you say the Sony Venice looks like its colors are painted on. You aren't just arguing against people online when you say that, you are saying the people who engineered it must have had no idea what they are doing as well as the productions that use it. 
 

 

Sorry I pulled the wrong link.

 

[Super8]

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Its a little hard to take you seriously when you say the Sony Venice looks like its colors are painted on. You aren't just arguing against people online when you say that, you are saying the people who engineered it must have had no idea what they are doing as well as the productions that use it. 
 

 

I said nothing about the people who made the Sony Venice.  I based my opinion on the clip that I posted. I'm not arguing with anyone.

The Sony Venice is priced high enough that it should be able to stand up to any comments.  I stand by my comment about that footage.

[thebrothersthre3]

11 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Here's Canon C500 vs BMP6K

This shows just how far off the BMP6k color performance is compared to Canon color science.  

What do you think of the Ursa Mini's color science btw? 

Also I assume you are an industry colorist?  

I actually have a form of colorblindness so having a camera with good color reproduction is important to me. If I don't want to pay a colorist I need to rely on the camera pretty much lol. Coming from my blind perspective the P6K colors look more harsh for lack of a better word. There has been a lot of complaints over the P4K colors not as much the P6K though. 

[Super8]

Just now, thebrothersthre3 said:

What do you think of the Ursa Mini's color science btw? 

Also I assume you are an industry colorist?  

I am actually colorblind so having a camera with good color reproduction is important to me. If I don't want to pay a colorist I need to rely on the camera pretty much lol. Coming from my blind perspective the P6K colors look more harsh for lack of a better word. 

I was surprised by the Ursa Mini's color science in that clip.  Based on my experience with the P6K I think you the Ursa Mini's is better than what it looks like in that clip.

3 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

What do you think of the Ursa Mini's color science btw? 

Also I assume you are an industry colorist?  

I am actually colorblind so having a camera with good color reproduction is important to me. If I don't want to pay a colorist I need to rely on the camera pretty much lol. Coming from my blind perspective the P6K colors look more harsh for lack of a better word. 

What do you shoot with? What do you prefer?

[thebrothersthre3]

14 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I was surprised by the Ursa Mini's color science in that clip.  Based on my experience with the P6K I think you the Ursa Mini's is better than what it looks like in that clip.

What do you shoot with? What do you prefer?

I currently have an XT3 and Ursa Mini 4.6k. Seemed like the two best options within my budget restraints.

Lots of people raved over the XT-3's color science. Again I am certainly not one to go to when it comes to color advice but I will say footage I got from my A6300 always looked poor in comparison. I also like it better than what I was seeing from my GH5. I've always liked Canon colors but their cameras are either too expensive, too under spec'ed or a mix of both. 

I've heard a lot of good things about the Ursa and have liked what I've seen from it so I got one. Some people think the Sony sensors in the Pocket 4k and 6k have something to do with the inferior color science to Blackmagic's older models fairchild sensors. f

I'd say if I could have any camera right now it would be the C300 Mark 3. 

I'll say this if there was a way to fix my color blindness I'd be saving for the procedure lol. 

[IronFilm]

32 minutes ago, Mako Sports1 said:

I honestly think hes just a troll. 

I am starting to think that as well. As @Super8 is ignoring my questions and completely missing the point 

[PannySVHS]

I shot a test with an Arri Alexa LF vs 65 to find out which one had better color reproduction. I filmed some dog poob, a real stress test to the sensor and the color science. Neither one of them made the poob look like it was a delicious strawberry. Then i did the same test again with my Olympus Pen EP2 and it gave me very similar results. I think the camera companies are just lazy and not doing their homework. I feel ripped now with my two Arris. The youtube test video hV2yvzYzix4 really shows the pain some testers like me were willing to go through, producing really challenging footage, so challenging to the eye.

[Super8]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I am starting to think that as well. As @Super8 is ignoring my questions and completely missing the point 

I didn't ignore your question.  I got tired of posting the sane-thing and posting a video links that you ignored and didn't respond.

You are missing the point. I would also say you have never seriously color corrected any footage from any camera that we've been discussing. 

I posted links with examples from the Sony Venice, Black Magic, RED and Canon.  You have real world color in those links.  You keep parroting the same line about how do you decide what's color science is good or not.  That answer is through experience and research.   Now it's your turn to reply to the links I posted.

8 hours ago, Mako Sports1 said:

I honestly think hes just a troll. 

Isn't the definition of a troll look like your post?  Someone who doesn't comment on the subject, brings nothing to the conversation and trys to stir up trouble?

[Super8]

11 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I currently have an XT3 and Ursa Mini 4.6k. Seemed like the two best options within my budget restraints.

Lots of people raved over the XT-3's color science. Again I am certainly not one to go to when it comes to color advice but I will say footage I got from my A6300 always looked poor in comparison. I also like it better than what I was seeing from my GH5. I've always liked Canon colors but their cameras are either too expensive, too under spec'ed or a mix of both. 

I've heard a lot of good things about the Ursa and have liked what I've seen from it so I got one. Some people think the Sony sensors in the Pocket 4k and 6k have something to do with the inferior color science to Blackmagic's older models fairchild sensors. f

I'd say if I could have any camera right now it would be the C300 Mark 3. 

I'll say this if there was a way to fix my color blindness I'd be saving for the procedure lol. 

How does colorblindness affect you?  I have a friend that can't see orange colors very well. 

I agree with your comments about Canon being expensive and lacking features in the past. The reason I brought up Canon color in this thread is because a lot of people are being negative about the R5's specs but they're missing the point about how important color is.

[thebrothersthre3]

 

12 minutes ago, Super8 said:

How does colorblindness affect you?  I have a friend that can't see orange colors very well. 

I agree with your comments about Canon being expensive and lacking features in the past. The reason I brought up Canon color in this thread is because a lot of people are being negative about the R5's specs but they're missing the point about how important color is.

This is what I got on a color blind test I just did. 
"Protan-type color vision deficiency is a type of red-green color blindness where the red cones in the eye do not detect enough red light, but instead respond more to green light.

As a result, many colors such as green, yellow, orange, red, and brown may appear confusingly similar. People with color blindness often also confuse blue and purple, and see pink as a shade of gray or white."

Sounds accurate. 

Canon seems to be finally catching up in features. I don't think they will ever be inexpensive but they are a premiere brand so that is expected I guess. 

[noone]

3 hours ago, Super8 said:

  That answer is through experience and research.   Now it's your turn to reply to the links I posted.

Isn't the definition of a troll look like your post?  Someone who doesn't comment on the subject, brings nothing to the conversation and trys to stir up trouble?

And if someone else's experience and research is different to yours?     

I am NOT a colourist or even a full on videographer but if what you say is true, there would not BE any other cameras used for ANYTHING that required colour.

So, are you a professional colourist?

 

 

[Super8]

 

36 minutes ago, Mako Sports1 said:

Stbh 

tbh he doesn't sound like one, he already dodged that question from someone else as well.

I answered his question more than a few times.  You seem to have ignored my comment posted back at you.  And again, you have 4 post and have done nothing but try and start trouble.

[Super8]

56 minutes ago, noone said:

And if someone else's experience and research is different to yours?     

I am NOT a colourist or even a full on videographer but if what you say is true, there would not BE any other cameras used for ANYTHING that required colour.

So, are you a professional colourist?

 

 

If you go back to my first comments I said ARRI and Canon produce to best color that's the easiest to color grade and correct. 

I've posted 5 or so video links and anyone is welcome to respond to what they see in those videos.  I totally understand that 5 or so videos aren't conclusive proof because each camera has it's breaking points. ARRI and Canon are just cover more ground before breaking.

 

Yes I am a professional colorist, among other things.

 

2 minutes ago, Mako Sports1 said:

Andrew deleted my main account that had over 800 posts on it just a few days ago. Nothing I can really do about that. 

Ok I understand.  I though I recognized the username.

[noone]

19 minutes ago, Super8 said:

 

 

Yes I am a professional colorist, among other things.

 

 

Great so you got a link to some of your work for me to learn from?