Sony PMW-F3 with 2500 hours on it. Should I buy it?

[Antoin e]

Well colors had much more contrast in VLC/Resolve. I'm viewing this on chrome with a benq monitor not calibrated but pretty decent color representation.

When i view it with quicktime it looks like what it will be on web.( https://www.thepostprocess.com/2020/03/16/color-shift-fixes-from-davinci-resolve-to-mac-displays/ )

And then i think it is too soft, not sharp enough when i compare to this : https://youtu.be/VIWBrX28E6Q

I used the Reduce noise plugin and used filmconvert so maybe i made some mistake when applying those effects.

Resolve keeps screaming "GPU memory is full" when i've graded the footage and try to upscale it to x3 or 4 and then i cannot see the timeline everything is black.

I have a Ryzen 7 1700 processor 32gb of ram and a old gtx660 2gb so maybe it is card but maybe there is a way to put the work on to the processor ?

I export with data levels set to full. timeline data what set in auto so im going to try this.

Setting project for color and export:

 

 

By how much do you scale / sharpen the footage and what resolution would be good to get the best image quality on the web ?

[Geoff CB]

Make timeline and 

3 hours ago, Antoin e said:

Well colors had much more contrast in VLC/Resolve. I'm viewing this on chrome with a benq monitor not calibrated but pretty decent color representation.

When i view it with quicktime it looks like what it will be on web.( https://www.thepostprocess.com/2020/03/16/color-shift-fixes-from-davinci-resolve-to-mac-displays/ )

And then i think it is too soft, not sharp enough when i compare to this : sf

I used the Reduce noise plugin and used filmconvert so maybe i made some mistake when applying those effects.

Resolve keeps screaming "GPU memory is full" when i've graded the footage and try to upscale it to x3 or 4 and then i cannot see the timeline everything is black.

I have a Ryzen 7 1700 processor 32gb of ram and a old gtx660 2gb so maybe it is card but maybe there is a way to put the work on to the processor ?

I export with data levels set to full. timeline data what set in auto so im going to try this.

Setting project for color and export:

 

 

By how much do you scale / sharpen the footage and what resolution would be good to get the best image quality on the web ?

Timeline and output color space should be Rec. 709.

Data levels for web delivery should be set to video.

On the timeline make sure each clips data levels are set to FULL.

Use sharpening instead of superscale, superscale internally raises the resolution, when you try to use x3 superscale it raises the internal resolution to 8K which is why your constantly running out of video memory. Use x2 max before sharpening.

 

[Antoin e]

On 7/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, Geoff CB said:

Make timeline and 

Timeline and output color space should be Rec. 709.

Data levels for web delivery should be set to video.

On the timeline make sure each clips data levels are set to FULL.

Use sharpening instead of superscale, superscale internally raises the resolution, when you try to use x3 superscale it raises the internal resolution to 8K which is why your constantly running out of video memory. Use x2 max before sharpening.

 

Thanks, did a 4K export with full data,x2 upscale and keyframe every 1sec worked much better : https://vimeo.com/436731326/360b61af6c

However rec709 is what da vinci was set by default. I found that in order to not get this gamma shift when uploading to the web, i had to put the output color space to P3-D65 wich is what web video players like youtube and vimeo use and it's slighty different than the rec709 that is based off TV standards. This allows the preview of da vinci to be exactly like it will be on the web. Quicktime still is not accurate tho.

This is my conclusion on the color spaces for the web:

 

[Antoin e]

Here is my F3 rigged up by the way + sport bag transport 

 

 

[PannySVHS]

@Antoin e I don´t get it. Something in those f3 images sings to me. That´s all I get:) Cannot wait to get mine into gears.

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, Antoin e said:

Thanks, did a 4K export with full data,x2 upscale and keyframe every 1sec worked much better : https://vimeo.com/436731326/360b61af6c

However rec709 is what da vinci was set by default. I found that in order to not get this gamma shift when uploading to the web, i had to put the output color space to P3-D65 wich is what web video players like youtube and vimeo use and it's slighty different than the rec709 that is based off TV standards. This allows the preview of da vinci to be exactly like it will be on the web. Quicktime still is not accurate tho.

This is my conclusion on the color spaces for the web:

 

Nice looking frames. I love your rig as well. 

I have had good results with ProRes LT to Vimeo.

[Antoin e]

5 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@Antoin e I don´t get it. Something in those f3 images sings to me. That´s all I get:) Cannot wait to get mine into gears.

Yeah i don't know if i explained it very well, i didn't get everything myself but this seems to be a well known issue amongst colorists

Very well detailled here : https://www.thepostprocess.com/2020/03/16/color-shift-fixes-from-davinci-resolve-to-mac-displays/

Tested out my ghetto car rig, i would put a ratchet straps to secure it better if i needed to use it  on a real shoot, but it worked pretty good, went up to 50km/h, took some speed bumps and it is very stable and pretty good image :  https://vimeo.com/437269538/92404a07c1

Unfortunately i did not have a polarized filter to get a good image trought the windshield 

 

[PannySVHS]

@Antoin e Hey, I meant, I was taken by the beauty of your footage with the F3, motion, tones and the whole canvas. Nicely done. Thank you very much for posting! This thing in 444 indeed seems to be a beast unleashed. Cannot wait to test it myself some time soon hopefully. I found some footage of its internal 8bit 420 SLOG. The seller left some on his car. I was rather impressed. Best implementation of 8bit Log I have seen. A contender to the internal CLOG of the C100 i/ii. One thing to consider is its best WB mode. Think it was 3200K. Google will tell and Alister Chapman. 🙂 

Now, if you would still find that beautiful footage of yours for us to grade, please don´t hesitate to drop us some! @TheRenaissanceMan cheers

[ntblowz]

So from that dslr video shooter video, the Slog look much more nicer than slog2 on modern Sony? WTF?

 

[Geoff CB]

7 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

So from that dslr video shooter video, the Slog look much more nicer than slog2 on modern Sony? WTF?

 

Slog 2 is a very weird codec in my opinion, it's only advantage is that it does pretty well in 8-bit compared to Slog-3. S-log and S-log3 are easy to grade with just regular adjustments, S-log2 really needs a color transform to work with properly. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Hey y'all! Sorry I wasn't able to get footage up sooner. I've been feeling under the weather this week, which has been understandably stressful given COVID. Still waiting for my test results, but I'm improving steadily, so hopefully everything comes back negative. 

But enough about me--let's get to the fun part.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYFylo03zFn2W-P5OtZ08xvZEuQrscGh?usp=sharing

These shots are just casual off-the-cuff clips taken around my apartment complex, but hopefully they still prove useful to those interested in how the F3 grades. I tried to get a variety of lighting scenarios, shot sizes, and color temps. The cookbook shot is ISO 1600, and the one under the bed is maxed out at 6400. Everything else is at the F3's base ISO of 800. 

At @mercer's request, I've included some cats this time. 😁

Keep in mind that I sometimes adjusted/bracketed focus or exposure during shots, so be sure and scrub through to find the most useful frames. 

Let me know if y'all have any other questions! 
 

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

So from that dslr video shooter video, the Slog look much more nicer than slog2 on modern Sony? WTF?

 

Yeah, you can grade F3 footage easily with just the Lift, Gamma, Gain in any grading tool and get nice results. No LUT needed. 

It is important to mention that there are two S-LOG settings on the F3. For best results, you want to set your camera to video out and enable S-LOG in the picture profile setting. If you do a standard, S-LOG out, the color is altered and harder to deal with in post. Specifically in the green channel.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

13 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

Yeah, you can grade F3 footage easily with just the Lift, Gamma, Gain in any grading tool and get nice results. No LUT needed. 

It is important to mention that there are two S-LOG settings on the F3. For best results, you want to set your camera to video out and enable S-LOG in the picture profile setting. If you do a standard, S-LOG out, the color is altered and harder to deal with in post. Specifically in the green channel.

Interesting...I've heard the opposite--that the picture profile version of SLOG is inferior and has "incorrect" color compared to the "proper" SLOG out. I've never noticed a big difference in my (admittedly brief) tests, so I use the latter option for the ability to toggle LUT on and off in the onboard monitor. 

The clips I posted above use the non-picture profile version of SLOG.

[BenEricson]

15 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Interesting...I've heard the opposite--that the picture profile version of SLOG is inferior and has "incorrect" color compared to the "proper" SLOG out. I've never noticed a big difference in my (admittedly brief) tests, so I use the latter option for the ability to toggle the LUT on and off in the onboard monitor. 

The clips I [posted above use the non-picture profile version of SLOG.

I originally had a non 444 model and when I switched to the 444 model, the colors felt slightly off. I kind of thought I was imagining it, but my issue was due to the S-LOG out. You should try shooting some green grass with both profiles. The straight S-LOG out will look a bit more artificial looking. 

Here is a quote from a member on DVX user form 2017. 

 

"The camera has two kinds of output, which you select in the "Dual-Link & Gamma Select" menu.

One output mode is Video. In this mode you can customize the picture profile to set the gamma and color matrix.

The other output mode is S-Log. In this mode, picture profiles are unavailable. The gamma is locked to S-Log and the gamut to S-Gamut. I found the colors to be weird in this mode and I could find no way to compensate in post, even using a proper S-Log & S-Gamut transform. I believe Sony screwed up S-Gamut on this camera.

So I suggest you forget the S-Log output mode and just use the Video mode. In Video mode, the most useful gamma settings are STD5 R709, Cine1, and S-Log (I mean S-Log the picture profile gamma setting, not S-Log the Dual-Link & Gamma Select mode). S-Log gamma works fine in Video mode. Personally I think the most versatile gamma setting is Cine1, for reasons I explain here. Cine1 is easy to grade by hand with just a levels filter, and you can also use my Logarist LUTs for that. If you want output that doesn't need to be graded at all, set the gamma to STD5 R709.  

I found a matrix of Standard to give the most natural looking color."

[TheRenaissanceMan]

48 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

I originally had a non 444 model and when I switched to the 444 model, the colors felt slightly off. I kind of thought I was imagining it, but my issue was due to the S-LOG out. You should try shooting some green grass with both profiles. The straight S-LOG out will look a bit more artificial looking. 

Here is a quote from a member on DVX user form 2017. 

 

"The camera has two kinds of output, which you select in the "Dual-Link & Gamma Select" menu.

One output mode is Video. In this mode you can customize the picture profile to set the gamma and color matrix.

The other output mode is S-Log. In this mode, picture profiles are unavailable. The gamma is locked to S-Log and the gamut to S-Gamut. I found the colors to be weird in this mode and I could find no way to compensate in post, even using a proper S-Log & S-Gamut transform. I believe Sony screwed up S-Gamut on this camera.

So I suggest you forget the S-Log output mode and just use the Video mode. In Video mode, the most useful gamma settings are STD5 R709, Cine1, and S-Log (I mean S-Log the picture profile gamma setting, not S-Log the Dual-Link & Gamma Select mode). S-Log gamma works fine in Video mode. Personally I think the most versatile gamma setting is Cine1, for reasons I explain here. Cine1 is easy to grade by hand with just a levels filter, and you can also use my Logarist LUTs for that. If you want output that doesn't need to be graded at all, set the gamma to STD5 R709.  

I found a matrix of Standard to give the most natural looking color."

I remember that topic! Didn't see a lot of difference between his samples though, so I dismissed it as a placebo effect. I'll have to add a couple picture profile clips to the folder for comparison.

EDIT: Clips 18-20, shot in Picture Profile SLOG, have been uploaded to the drive folder.

[BenEricson]

Randomly found this when I was searching for that topic. Nice looking color.

https://youtu.be/2GOUeB3dpng

[PannySVHS]

@BenEricson I loved your skater piece, which you shot on the F3 and on 16mm. Which parts of the footage were shot with what camera though! They intercut so seamlessly. Aweas some colour. The example you posted above does not look as awesome like yours colourwise, imho. Another example of stunning colour, even within the Fuji like greenish palette. Always associated Fujifilm with maginficienat greens. Hopefully there will be a project soon where I can put this camera to test!

 

[PannySVHS]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:48 PM, TheRenaissanceMan said:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYFylo03zFn2W-P5OtZ08xvZEuQrscGh?usp=sharing

These shots are just casual off-the-cuff clips taken around my apartment complex, but hopefully they still prove useful to those interested in how the F3 grades. I tried to get a variety of lighting scenarios, shot sizes, and color temps. The cookbook shot is ISO 1600, and the one under the bed is maxed out at 6400. Everything else is at the F3's base ISO of 800. 

At @mercer's request, I've included some cats this time. 😁

 

I hope you´re doing very good and everything is fine! Thank you very much for uploading so much test footage. It is a parade of nerd heaven!:) Is this external 10bit 422? My harddrives are bursting from footage at the moment, so how much data are the files? @mercer Wha?t about some footage of your cat? You would give Mattias Burlings Gunpowder a good run for the money. What´s your cats name, for a start?:) cheers

[IronFilm]

Useful video about setting up the F3 if you're new to the camera and external recording. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

On 7/15/2020 at 12:00 PM, PannySVHS said:

I hope you´re doing very good and everything is fine! Thank you very much for uploading so much test footage. It is a parade of nerd heaven!:) Is this external 10bit 422? My harddrives are bursting from footage at the moment, so how much data are the files? @mercer Wha?t about some footage of your cat? You would give Mattias Burlings Gunpowder a good run for the money. What´s your cats name, for a start?:) cheers

Thanks Penny. Looks like I'm in the clear for now.

This footage is all ProRes 422 recorded through the BMVA 5". Mostly short clips, 30 seconds on average.