Sony A7S III wish list and the not-NAB 2020 no-show today

[zerocool22]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:53 AM, Super8 said:

Please explain why the EOS R is garbage? 

Well dynamic range was not that great + the crop were my problems with the eos R. 

[Django]

10 hours ago, wolf33d said:

What are you actually talking about? You are absolutely ridiculous. I started photography with a 450D, used the 5D2 for years, the 5D3 for years. I have got the A7R II, the GH5, the GX85, Nikon D5500 and D5600, the A7III and multiple others.
I am bashing shitty products from any company, and praising good products from good companies. You are again into this brand loyalty thing. It’s not about jumping ship, there is no ship. Only products. 
Yeah, it’s seems everything you see is hilarious, just as your first comment about the hilarious people bashing the R5 in the first place. You on the other end aren’t hilarious, you are sad. 

What is sad is you’re trying to argue a case against someone deeply invested across multiple systems, including an FS7... while you’re out there blowing hot air “bashing shitty products”. Ridiculous indeed. You are just a troll man. Go away.
 

 

[gt3rs]

I’m really not sure it make sense to have dslr specific for video... Panasonic is the only really focusing in this part of the market but they don‘t have many cinema camera and are basically nowhere in the photo world.

Canon is trying to add as much video features in their normal photo camera lineup and to me for a R & D prospective it makes more sense.

Is Sony still committed to special video centric dslr? I’m not so sure

 

[FranciscoB]

If we look at the fx9, it's basically an fs7 with a fullframe sensor. If the fx6 is going to exist, I don't know what specs are left for the a7s. Ibis, average audio, micro hdmi, better af and great low light performance?

[Django]

Everyone has been pushing video lately, including Fuji & Nikon.. two outsiders.

It's totally puzzling to see Sony take the back seat when the mirrorless market has never been so crowded & competitive.

Surely they have something up their sleeve but it's a mystery why they are taking so long.

My theory is they want to wow the public but keep getting sent to the drawing boards.

They'd rather show nothing than tarnish their reputation as spec leaders by coming out with a non-showstopper.

It's a double edged sword though as their alpha cams are falling way behind. 

edit: FX9/FX6 definitely don't leave much wiggle room for an A7S3. 

[nathlas]

1 hour ago, Django said:

 

It's totally puzzling to see Sony take the back seat when the mirrorless market has never been so crowded & competitive.

 

Perhaps they have gone indeed back to redesign that . Especially against S1H. Ι believe R5 was a surprise for them.

[Django]

R5 took everyone by surprise. That said, the main problem as pointed above is FX9. 

An $11K camera that caps at 4K60p 10-bit. No internal RAW either.

I doubt Sony will let Alpha series equal or trump XDCam series. 

Alphas seems mainly geared towards photographers now. Ironically Sony has become the new Canon.

[Andrew Reid]

Yeah but if you look at original C300, specs were capped at 1080p 8bit, pretty weak, and 1D C was 4K, larger sensor, image quality thrashed it... Did it stop the C300 being a run-away success with commercial videographers? No. And same thing now, if you look at EOS R5 specs vs C300 III, in some ways they are ahead of even the FX9 and certainly way ahead of FS7 II. You know what though? Most pros don't care. They want the extra features and ergonomics offered by the larger pro cameras, and of course they want to LOOK like pros when they turn up for work. Sad but true

Sony have nothing to fear by out-gunning the FX9 specs with an A7S III.

The strange thing is, they don't seem to have the technology ready to give it us yet.

Indeed, if you look at the photos side they are doing a bit of a Canon as well. A6400 / A6600 hardly an exciting step forward for stills. The A7R IV was more evolution than revolution too.

I think it is probably a cycle all companies go through, especially if the have pushed hard for a long time to establish decent sales, and then they milk it until the next big step.

[Django]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sony have nothing to fear by out-gunning the FX9 specs with an A7S III.

Oh I agree with you. I just don't think it's in Sony's philosophy to let imaging outgun cine division like that.

It wasn't Canons either for years, story has it R5 was made possible by cine & imaging divisions working hand in hand (I assume last time that happened was with 1DC).

I hear you on the cycle thing. They could also be kicking it back watching the completion unfold all their cards and step in later with a sledge hammer.

Dangerous game though. 

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yeah but if you look at original C300, specs were capped at 1080p 8bit, pretty weak, and 1D C was 4K, larger sensor, image quality thrashed it... Did it stop the C300 being a run-away success with commercial videographers? No. And same thing now, if you look at EOS R5 specs vs C300 III, in some ways they are ahead of even the FX9 and certainly way ahead of FS7 II. You know what though? Most pros don't care. They want the extra features and ergonomics offered by the larger pro cameras, and of course they want to LOOK like pros when they turn up for work. Sad but true

  Yeah so true. Or buy a big rig (matte box, follow focus, evf, etc) to put in your small camera. Same effect 🤣

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

The strange thing is, they don't seem to have the technology ready to give it us yet.

Indeed, if you look at the photos side they are doing a bit of a Canon as well. A6400 / A6600 hardly an exciting step forward for stills. The A7R IV was more evolution than revolution too.

I think it is probably a cycle all companies go through, especially if the have pushed hard for a long time to establish decent sales, and then they milk it until the next big step.

If it wasn't for Sony, Panasonic, Blackmagic, ... I'm pretty sure the Canon R5 wouldn't have had the specs it has now.
Canon needs to succeed in the mirrorless market to stay in photography and video business.
The Canon R5 will get them the mirrorless marketshare and RF lens sales they need.

Sony, like everyone, was caught off guard and likely doesn't have the processor chip or tech at the moment.
Maybe they will quickly throw some incomplete product together that require future firmware updates to compete.

[FranciscoB]

But what was the difference in price of the C300 and the 1dc? They were pretty expensive and the 1dc was part of the cinema line. The alpha series are not part of the fx series. And people tend to forget that pro cameras are much more than looks. You have professional outputs and connections, xlrs, nds, different codecs and gammas, etc. Not something to ignore if you do this regularly. I could be wrong but I'm not seeing where sony can go with a7s 3.

[thebrothersthre3]

I personally don't see why Sony couldn't put out an A7S3 with full frame 10 bit 422 4k. 

People wouldn't suddenly not buy the FX9. Will people stop buying the C500 and C300 when the R5 comes out? The R5 can do 10 bit and RAW like both those cameras plus it does even higher resolutions. 

[FranciscoB]

It's not about the 10bit. Sony said they're going to exceed expectations with a7s 3 and to do so, I'm not seeing how they're not going to hurt fx9 sales. A camera that looks to be great that maxes out at 4k 60p. Off course there's a lot more to the fx9 than just video specs but still... 

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, FranciscoB said:

It's not about the 10bit. Sony said they're going to exceed expectations with a7s 3 and to do so, I'm not seeing how they're not going to hurt fx9 sales. A camera that looks to be great that maxes out at 4k 60p. Off course there's a lot more to the fx9 than just video specs but still... 

Canon thought the same. But then everyone switched to Sony, Panasonic, Blackmagic, ... instead of buying the Cxxx series for video.
Sony will have the same problem if they keep crippling their camera's. People will just as easily switch back to Canon.

[FranciscoB]

You're probably right. The fx came as will always have pro connections, audio and other features beyond image quality that make them still relevant for many types of work

 

[Super8]

51 minutes ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Canon thought the same. But then everyone switched to Sony, Panasonic, Blackmagic, ... instead of buying the Cxxx series for video.
Sony will have the same problem if they keep crippling their camera's. People will just as easily switch back to Canon.

You make sense my friend.  With all the Canon glass being used by everyone it's an easy move to jump on board the Canon ship.   Canon knows this and I see a shift happening in the industry. 

It will be interesting to see what Black Magic does later this year.  With the price drop of the P6K you have to expect Black Magic to drop a new camera in the fall. 

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, Super8 said:

It will be interesting to see what Black Magic does later this year.  With the price drop of the P6K you have to expect Black Magic to drop a new camera in the fall. 

Indeed. But not sure a 8k fullframe image sensor is available with those specs at the moment.
More likely we will see a 6k fullframe camera from them. But then again, who really needs 8k at the moment?

[FranciscoB]

I think if they're smart, they won't release a new camera this years and drop the prices for the p4k and p6k even more. Seems more like a reaction to the new competition (r5, s1h, zcam) than antecipation for a new release. 

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yeah but if you look at original C300, specs were capped at 1080p 8bit, pretty weak, and 1D C was 4K, larger sensor, image quality thrashed it... Did it stop the C300 being a run-away success with commercial videographers? No.

The C300mk1 wasn't a direct competitor to the 1D C

In the market the C300mk1 was released into back then:
The C300mk1 both undercut the price of a Sony PMW-F3 full package (F3 + S-log + recorder), and crucially had a better internal recording spec than the F3 (which was a deal breaker for many). 
The C300mk1 was also cheaper than all the RED offerings, only the Scarlet MX was close in price but that came with a lot of negatives (not least that many clients didn't want to deal with raw). And obviously it was massively cheaper than an ARRI or higher end Sony cameras. 

Easy to see why the C300mk1 was such a massive smash hit with so many people owning one. 

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sony have nothing to fear by out-gunning the FX9 specs with an A7S III.

I agree, fingers crossed Sony does this. 
But unlikely with Sony's track record. Doubt we'll even see an a7Smk3 at all soon.

  

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think it is probably a cycle all companies go through, especially if the have pushed hard for a long time to establish decent sales, and then they milk it until the next big step.

Yup, R&D is very expensive. Companies need to coast along with their existing momentum to catch their breath again, and recoup their costs. 

[PaulUsher]

On 5/1/2020 at 5:45 AM, wolf33d said:

See, you say I look like a hater, you came on this page to say “Its funny listening to the R5 bashers, most of them shook fanboys.” and if I try to call you a fanboy you go crazy. Pathetic. Relax man, there is much more hate in your message than mine. 

I have used the EOS R btw. Garbage.

Garbage is an interesting word for this camera. I’m glad I won’t have to read R-bashing for much longer. Before we all move on, and pick up an R Successor, I’d like to put this in the record. I’ve nothing better to do right now, so here’s the whole story of the R from someone who has used it every day since it first dropped 18 months ago.

 

Firstly, fair point on this thread about the DR- on par with the C100 at best, maybe C200 (the non raw output). The crop never bothered me though - close enough to match the S35 cinecams - and there’s always the metabones as a fair fix. My problem with the R, like other R users on this thread, is the rolling shutter in 4K / crop mode (RS is fine in full frame), though I found this practically disappeared when using wider lenses like the Sigma 18-35. It’s there if you chuck it about. So I have to give a damn about camera movement, and I sometimes use a shoulder/chest pod handheld. Forget 50mm and above though yeah unless you’re on a gimbal or using some kind of rig. Flawed camera, it certainly is. The rolling shutter is my major gripe (my other gripe being no 60p in 4K - minor for me but a deal-breaker for many, I get it). 

 

This RS, which btw enhances some tilt-access warp in the electronic IS, so it’s a double-whammy, meant countless hours of experimentation and in the end meant building my own chest/shoulder pod for extreme handheld work and longer focal lengths. I’ve destroyed the RS but I wish I hadn’t had to do this, and I don’t always want to have to use this rig (even though it does improve every shoot). Bring on the IBIS. The 4K 60p. 10 bit internal. All hail R5/R6 - so long as there’s improved rolling shutter.

 

Garbage though? In and of itself, and just going by specs, I won’t argue that it was a disappointment, especially for full frame shooters. I agree, it’s a flawed video camera. BUT, when you put the R in context - ie with lenses, next to other cameras -I’d argue it offers formidable value for doc shooters, solo operators and for all the indie filmmakers who want to use a Sigma 18-35 without a focus puller....

 

Because it’s the only mirrorless cam on the planet to offer perfect autofocus (yes, for me, it works PERFECTLY) with that Sigma 18-35, a lens so good that many cinematographers use its rehoused glass for its true 1.8 transmission, near parfocality, and smooth focusing with almost imperceptible breathing (well, at least on the R...) I may be wrong, but I think the only other cameras on Earth that pair this well with the Sigma 18-35 for autofocussing full 4K readout are the Canon cinecams: C200, C300 mkii, mkiii, C500 mkii... I’d say the R is in pretty good company.

 

When you then add the R’s drop in ND filter (1.5-10 stops), it really gets interesting. I barely remove it when using the Sigma. How many of those cinecams have non-stepping ND (they step two stops, four etc) On the R you just adjust to any stop, wherever you want... all with the roll of a finger. The R also has decent electronic image stabilisation (if you know how to sidestep its limitations) which is missing from some of Canon’s ‘cinema cameras’.

 

I’m aware the R doesn’t have native XLR inputs or pro time code functions etc. I know it’s not a cinema camera (but this didn’t stop me selling my C300 to use the R exclusively). It’s a consumer camera - with an image that punches WELL above its weight. The R’s 4K is a 1:1 readout (which you can also out at 10 bit). Its 1080 is downsampled from the same 4K readout in crop mode. The R5 will not process its 4K the same way. It may be better, if Canon downsample 8K (it might not be better, especially its 1080), otherwise what kind of voodoo will the R5, and its purported 45 megapixel sensor, have to perform to offer better than 1:1 readout to cover the image circle of my Sigma 18-35? I hope Canon does it.

 

Obviously, the R is not going to be any cinematographers first choice to shoot a movie, but for anyone else, especially doc shooters and solo operators, I’m hard pressed to think of a better value canon video camera. Its 4K image rivals the C200, even performs a decent imitation of the 1DC image. And it has a 5Dmkiv built into it. In a low-profile mirrorless body. With an RF lens mount. All this for as little as £1400 used (and falling...)

 

The R was received poorly by all of us who were hoping it was gonna be the R6 and the anger STILL resounds. But the R6 is now coming, and soon the R Classic will be totally written off (if it hasn’t been already). If the next gen R cams can really deliver, I’ll probably trade in my R, and some kid can pick it up used and sacrifice it’s stunning images to the gods of YouTube compression - or maybe create something beautiful. Garbage? I’m afraid you’re probably right - the R will end up as garbage -  but I don’t think it deserves to be. Despite how frustrating the camera can be, it’s also been amazing in many ways. Farewell to the garbage that time forgot. Or will the R Classic be resurrected in the RF era, the impending ‘Revolution’ love-in, suddenly touted as the ‘next-best’ option to the R Pros for those shooters that, in these uncertain times, will not be able to afford the insane price tags surely headed our way.