Real Estate Essentials...

[Dustin]

Hey All,

I hope everyone is staying safe! Chiming in here for some advice. Still rocking the a6500 going on 3 years now. I'm looking to start getting into real estate videography in my town (in the states) as I've become aware of a niche that I could fulfill and make some decent side change. Now straight to the point of my post - after a decent browse through in the internet of videos on this genre - I knew I had two holes in my setup to make this work, a wide angle lens and a stabilizer of some sort. I picked up the Samyang 12mm F2.0 wide angle lens and have a Zhiyun Crane V2 gimbal on the way. Between this wide angle and my Sony 35mm 1.8, and various vintage nikon glass and speedbooster, I should be covered for any lens I would possibly need. Does anyone on this board shoot real estate whom might have some tips regarding the gimbal? In almost five years of filmmaking this will be my first gimbal and while I've seen plenty of videos on how to balance, etc. is there anything else I need to be aware of? I assume once balanced if I wanted to swap to say my Sony 35mm 1.8 for some detail shots, I would need to rebalance? In any event, I think it should all be very straightforward and I plan to just use the EOSHD Pro Color profiles I've been using for years to make color grading a breeze. Just curious if anyone has any advice or thoughts. While I understand the business aspect of this - I hope to find away to break from the all 60FPS slowed down, jump cut look everyone on the internet posts and any suggestions on creativity in this genre would also be welcome.

[newfoundmass]

I'd consider getting an even wider lens if you're able to. That 12mm is about 18mm full frame equivalent, right? I use a 7-14 on my GH5, mostly at 7mm (14mm FF equivalent) for the work I've done. Ultra wide is generally what they're looking for. 

[IronFilm]

You might find yourself wanting to offer real estate photography as well alongside the video (especially if you're in a small town). If so, then consider grabbing a tilt-shift lens as well (check out the Fstoppers course too on Real Estate Photography by Mike Kelly, it is really good!).

[Dustin]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I'd consider getting an even wider lens if you're able to. That 12mm is about 18mm full frame equivalent, right? I use a 7-14 on my GH5, mostly at 7mm (14mm FF equivalent) for the work I've done. Ultra wide is generally what they're looking for. 

Thanks! Yeah I’m gonna try this one out first and see how it goes. If I need wider I certainly will. 

[Dustin]

40 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

You might find yourself wanting to offer real estate photography as well alongside the video (especially if you're in a small town). If so, then consider grabbing a tilt-shift lens as well (check out the Fstoppers course too on Real Estate Photography by Mike Kelly, it is really good!).

Thanks for the tip! I’m hoping to stay away from photography for now but we’ll see what happens. I realize to them it’s all just marketing but I figure if I can offer a service helps your return why not. I have a regular job so this would just be a side gig to make some extra money.

[EphraimP]

You might want to invest in a drone as well. It seems drone shots are becoming standard for real estate videos. 

I'm curious what you plan to charge per video. 

[Dustin]

29 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

You might want to invest in a drone as well. It seems drone shots are becoming standard for real estate videos. 

I'm curious what you plan to charge per video. 

I plan to but want to see how the first few gigs go. Pricing I’m still working on that too. This will be a side gig to me, so I’m just hoping to make some extra money on the weekends or nights when I don’t have anything going on. I realize with the fast-paced nature of real estate I will be working on their schedule more so than mine. 

[Mark Romero 2]

As someone who make their living doing real estate photography and video full time...

Here is what the sony a6500 and 10-18 lens (which I actually recommend, although the 12mm Rokinon / Samyang is supposed to be good). Also used a Phantom 3 Pro (also called a P3P). I'm using the Sony camera on the first generation Zhiyun Crane.

https://youtu.be/8S6NbTHqgxk

The issue I would imagine the main issue with the Samyang / Rokinon 12mm is the distortion will have to be corrected. Might be less of a problem in still photos, more of a problem in video. The Sony 10-18 already has the distortion corrected.

You really should think about doing photography as well, because your competitors will offer both video and drone and photography. And of course, you are most likely going to need a drone.

Really, the most important lesson is that quality of photo is not as important to the agents as reliability and speed in turning around photos (and video). And for 95% of real estate agents, price is a BIG factor. I am a bit of an anomaly because I charge MORE than my competitors and I do strive for more quality in my photos and I take longer to turn around photos and videos. There is a smaller group of agents who will work with me.

With the shelter in place order, I have seen more requests for video from agents who don't normally request video. I don't know if that will continue in two to three months as either states relax their shelter in place orders, or people just get tired of following the rules and more people decide to disobey them.

Oh, and you are going to want to use SLOG 2 with the s-gmaut.3.cine picture profile. There is a tool (can't remember the name) to transform that combo into ACES. I can look it up later for you. With real estate video, dynamic range is pretty important.

 

[Mark Romero 2]

5 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 This will be a side gig to me, so I’m just hoping to make some extra money on the weekends or nights when I don’t have anything going on.

Flexibility in scheduling is pretty important to most agents. 

I am sure there are some who do pretty well on the side, but most agents are going to want to hire someone who can come in at, say, 10:00 am on a Tuesday morning, and have the video ready for them within 24 hours. Not ALL agents will require that, but I think most will.

Agents also have a tendency to schedule EVERYONE together. So they will schedule you, AND the stills photographer, AND the gardener, AND the electrician, AND the window washer to all show up at the same time so that you are going to have to work around each other. I once showed up to a gig and their were four of the Molly Maids (house cleaners) that showed up at the same time. The agent just wanted to get everything done in a hurry so they scheduled everyone for the same time.

[Dustin]

38 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Flexibility in scheduling is pretty important to most agents. 

I am sure there are some who do pretty well on the side, but most agents are going to want to hire someone who can come in at, say, 10:00 am on a Tuesday morning, and have the video ready for them within 24 hours. Not ALL agents will require that, but I think most will.

Agents also have a tendency to schedule EVERYONE together. So they will schedule you, AND the stills photographer, AND the gardener, AND the electrician, AND the window washer to all show up at the same time so that you are going to have to work around each other. I once showed up to a gig and their were four of the Molly Maids (house cleaners) that showed up at the same time. The agent just wanted to get everything done in a hurry so they scheduled everyone for the same time.

Mark thank you for your response! Exactly what the kind of info I was wanting to find out. Like I said I’m kind of getting my feet wet with this a side gig but I can definitely understand the need for flexibility. I think my particular market, the videography just isn’t being done on a majority of listings. That tells me either a) they don’t have the budget (sub$3-400k houses) or b) they just don’t know anyone in town whom would do it or even c) don’t want to pay for it. What setup do you use man?

 

edit—-

 

missed your first post on setup lol!

[Dustin]

44 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

As someone who make their living doing real estate photography and video full time...

Here is what the sony a6500 and 10-18 lens (which I actually recommend, although the 12mm Rokinon / Samyang is supposed to be good). Also used a Phantom 3 Pro (also called a P3P). I'm using the Sony camera on the first generation Zhiyun Crane.

https://youtu.be/8S6NbTHqgxk

The issue I would imagine the main issue with the Samyang / Rokinon 12mm is the distortion will have to be corrected. Might be less of a problem in still photos, more of a problem in video. The Sony 10-18 already has the distortion corrected.

You really should think about doing photography as well, because your competitors will offer both video and drone and photography. And of course, you are most likely going to need a drone.

Really, the most important lesson is that quality of photo is not as important to the agents as reliability and speed in turning around photos (and video). And for 95% of real estate agents, price is a BIG factor. I am a bit of an anomaly because I charge MORE than my competitors and I do strive for more quality in my photos and I take longer to turn around photos and videos. There is a smaller group of agents who will work with me.

With the shelter in place order, I have seen more requests for video from agents who don't normally request video. I don't know if that will continue in two to three months as either states relax their shelter in place orders, or people just get tired of following the rules and more people decide to disobey them.

Oh, and you are going to want to use SLOG 2 with the s-gmaut.3.cine picture profile. There is a tool (can't remember the name) to transform that combo into ACES. I can look it up later for you. With real estate video, dynamic range is pretty important.

 

So I went with the Samyang for now as the F4 seemed a bit too slow. Clearly you use it with good results. Also as I’m doing this on the side didn’t want to invest too much extra yet. I’m certainly thinking our local market is the same as what you’ve described that more are wanting video. At least that’s what a few realtor friends of mine have said. I’m not quite sure whom exactly I’m competing against locally but the market varies in quality from iPhone (super crappy) to professional. I’d say most of the listings I see though look to be lower quality iPhone stuff. Before my career change I did car photography for a luxury auto dealership so I know how to present something and get detail shots everyone is looking for. Just kinda hoping to keep it only at video but your right, might be limiting myself by only doing video!

[noone]

Tilt shift lenses are great but more for architecture photography rather than real estate.     High end real estate shooters do use them sometimes but usually you do not have enough time.

My nephew used to shoot real estate video and i loaned him my 17mm TS-E while I was without a camera but it is not something he used very much (using an a7sii).     He now has his own company using a GH5.

17 TS-E can work for interiors too but again, often there would not be enough time.    Many people just use wider lenses now with high MP cameras and crop.

I will still use my 17 for this and lots of purposes though.

[Dustin]

1 hour ago, noone said:

Tilt shift lenses are great but more for architecture photography rather than real estate.     High end real estate shooters do use them sometimes but usually you do not have enough time.

My nephew used to shoot real estate video and i loaned him my 17mm TS-E while I was without a camera but it is not something he used very much (using an a7sii).     He now has his own company using a GH5.

17 TS-E can work for interiors too but again, often there would not be enough time.    Many people just use wider lenses now with high MP cameras and crop.

I will still use my 17 for this and lots of purposes though.

Lovely image there! Well I ordered a Samyang 12mm f2.0 and it will be here tomorrow. I just wanted something really wide without spending a ton of money. I plan to put it through it’s paces this weekend and see if it will work for the style I want to shoot. I also have the crane v2 gimbal coming in which I’m excited about because I’ve been wanting a gimbal for some time. Should be here next week.

[IronFilm]

On 5/7/2020 at 1:41 PM, noone said:

(using an a7sii).     He now has his own company using a GH5.

Do you know why your nephew swapped from the a7Smk2 to a GH5 for real estate?

[Mark Romero 2]

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Do you know why your nephew swapped from the a7Smk2 to a GH5 for real estate?

Obviously, I can't answer for Dustin's nephew. And I am curious about this, too.

But I can tell you that the reason I switched from my a6500 (which is a pretty good camera for RE video)  to an S1 was for the 10-bit codec and the better screen and the better IBIS. I found that I don't need to use my external 5-inch monitor on my S1, not because the LCD screen is brilliant, but because it is "good enough" in bright sunlight (compared to the a6500 where you might as well just put a mirror on the back of the LCD because even a mirror would be LESS reflective than the screen on an a6500). So I wouldn't be surprised if those wer esome of the reason's his nephew went for the GH5.

Oddly enough, there is not a HUGE dynamic range benefit between the S1 and the a6500, but banding is all but eliminated and the shadows are significantly cleaner (Hmmm.... re-reading that< guess that means there IS a big difference in dynamic range???) Plus the 10-bit codec is really helpful in removing color casts (and when you are shooting real estate which is 98% of the time using available light / house lights, you get LOTS of color casts). 

I haven't used a GH5, but if you are on a gimbal and walking through a house, shooting in 4K 60 would also be helpful to smooth out the footage in post. (Assuming of course it is just a straight "walkthrough" type video where you aren't recording anyone talking.

[Dustin]

Hey All not sure which nephew we’re referring to but i might’ve gotten mixed up with another person as I have no nephews lol. I received the Samyang 12mm 2.8 and it seems to be a nice small/wide lens for the money. Just what I was hoping for. Gimbal arrived Monday (but possibly Saturday). I plan to shoot a demo next week of my own house as a sample, since most of my video work has not been in this genre or close. I’ve been practicing shooting SLog2 but it’s tough to expose for me. I’m using my histogram and the built in exposure meter but I’ve read to expose between 1-2 stops over. Let’s say I’m shooting a kitchen scene with nice windows but not much light. Would I balance between the two readings and maybe increase my iso from 800 to 1600 with the appropriate f-stop to match? Or should I rock an ND filter in-doors so I don’t have to adjust my f-stop? Shooting in cine4 is easier to wrap my head around because I’m not thinking as much but I realize you give up a bit of dynamic range. The other thing is codec... isn’t the 1080 120fps a better codec than the 60fps? I usually like working with my 1-2 memory settings so I guess I’ll make a set of 120 and 60 and see which I like better. 

[zerocool22]

The laowa 12mm zero distortion is a good fit, as you dont want a lot of distortion on you real estate video's. 

[noone]

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Do you know why your nephew swapped from the a7Smk2 to a GH5 for real estate?

The A7s ii was the companies he worked for I believe.  

Now with his own business it is not just real estate (that is probably not a huge part of it now ..will ask him next I see him).    He was working at a major electronics retailer part time too and had nice discounts on some gear.

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, Dustin said:

Hey All not sure which nephew we’re referring to but i might’ve gotten mixed up with another person as I have no nephews lol. I received the Samyang 12mm 2.8 and it seems to be a nice small/wide lens for the money. Just what I was hoping for. Gimbal arrived Monday (but possibly Saturday). I plan to shoot a demo next week of my own house as a sample, since most of my video work has not been in this genre or close. I’ve been practicing shooting SLog2 but it’s tough to expose for me. I’m using my histogram and the built in exposure meter but I’ve read to expose between 1-2 stops over. Let’s say I’m shooting a kitchen scene with nice windows but not much light. Would I balance between the two readings and maybe increase my iso from 800 to 1600 with the appropriate f-stop to match? Or should I rock an ND filter in-doors so I don’t have to adjust my f-stop? Shooting in cine4 is easier to wrap my head around because I’m not thinking as much but I realize you give up a bit of dynamic range. The other thing is codec... isn’t the 1080 120fps a better codec than the 60fps? I usually like working with my 1-2 memory settings so I guess I’ll make a set of 120 and 60 and see which I like better. 

Ok, so a few things...

I’m using my histogram and the built in exposure meter but I’ve read to expose between 1-2 stops over.

Well, that is if you are going to be metering middle gray off of a gray card. But that is difficult to do for a real estate video when you are trying to hold a gimbal and camera in one hand and you will be in a room large enough and with different brightness levels so you don't know what part of the room to put the gray card in.

In general, when in a high contrast scene, I try to expose SLOG 2 about 1/2 stop before the maximum zebras for SLOG2 appear. Double check what the max zebras are for SLOG 2. I think it is 105 IRE but I could be mistaken so double check. 

It is VERY IMPORTANT you don't set the zebra level above SLOG 2's maximum point because if you do, the zebras will NEVER appear. So if SLOG 2 clips at 105 IRE (which I think it does, but you are going to double check, right???) and you set the zebra display to show at 106 IRE or higher (which I believe is over SLOG 2's upper limit), then the zebras will NEVER show, no matter how bright your scene is. 

Let’s say I’m shooting a kitchen scene with nice windows but not much light. Would I balance between the two readings and maybe increase my iso from 800 to 1600 with the appropriate f-stop to match?

At that point, when it is REALLY contrasty, you just have to decide what is most important to you. Is the view out the window most important? If so, expose for the view and realize that you will probably have to crush the shadows / blacks a bit to keep the noise down. But if the interior of the kitchen is most important, then let the windows over-expose and just keep your exposure high enough so that the interior of the kitchen is about 1 stop or so over what a normal exposure would be.

If both the interior AND the view are important, then you are just going to have to shoot more than one scene / one angle with proper exposure for whatever makes up the bulk of that shot.

As for ISO, try to keep it at ISO 800 because that has the most dynamic range for SLOG 2.

Shooting in cine4 is easier to wrap my head around because I’m not thinking as much but I realize you give up a bit of dynamic range.

Yeah, but you give up about a stop and a half or something like that in reduced dynamic range. Also, I myself have found the roll-off in the cinegammas to look pretty nasty (although i remember @Deadcode mentioning that the rolloff in Cine 4 can be nice, but I don't think I have the skills / talent level of Deadcode to be able to get smooth rolloff with Cine 4, so I stick with SLOG 2)

The other thing is codec... isn’t the 1080 120fps a better codec than the 60fps?

No. Test this out to confirm, but 99% sure that it isn't a better codec. It is the SAME codec, but you have twice as many frames per second spread across 100Mbs worth of data. So in essence, each frame at 120fps is getting half the data each frame gets at 60fps (I know that isn't exactly how it works, but you get the idea).

The other thing is, if you want to stick to the 180-degree shutter rule, then if you are shooting at 120fps, you have to set your shutter for 1/250th of a second. It is unlikely you are going to be in a house shooting at 1/250th of a second. On the other hand, it might be useful if you are shooting outdoors in the bright sun with a shallow depth of field.