S1H Raw Format?

[TheBoogieKnight]

Hi everyone

 

Just wondered if anybody knows what format the RAW output of the S1H is? I've been led to believe up to now that's it's definitely LOG but I've just watched this video:

Which says it's linear.

 

Anyone know for sure? Also anyone got any idea of the lag of the Ninja V in Raw mode? It's pretty bad on the S1 but I was hoping it would be better.

 

Thanks

[deezid]

12 bit linear RAW, since the sensor's video readout is in 12 bit linear as well it makes perfect sense to do so.  

[Rinad Amir]

The S1H is power house with 12bitRaw and 14stops of Dynamic range real pros would apreciate it not like me 😪

[Andrew Reid]

RAW sensor data does not have a "format" other than being RAW sensor data. No LOG, no colour profile, no white balance.

It's output as RAW data but the Ninja V I think interprets RAW as V-LOG on the screen, so that you can use a LUT.

[androidlad]

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

RAW sensor data does not have a "format" other than being RAW sensor data. No LOG, no colour profile, no white balance.

It's output as RAW data but the Ninja V I think interprets RAW as V-LOG on the screen, so that you can use a LUT.

Well there are actually RAW formats, ARRI and Canon uses 12bit logarithmic RAW encoding.

In this case, ProRes RAW is designed to be linear.

[HockeyFan12]

4 hours ago, deezid said:

12 bit linear RAW, since the sensor's video readout is in 12 bit linear as well it makes perfect sense to do so.  

Not being snarky, genuinely curious: how does the S1H achieve 14 stops of dynamic range with a 12 bit ADC? 

[Video Hummus]

26 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Not being snarky, genuinely curious: how does the S1H achieve 14 stops of dynamic range with a 12 bit ADC? 

It’s closer to 12.7 at best.

[thebrothersthre3]

Yeah Cinema 5D measured it at 12.7 stops when shooting in 6k, but I think that was due to the aggressive NR going on(seems to be more at 6k according to different sources). Just my guess as 4k was measured at 12.3. 

[HockeyFan12]

I might be misunderstanding something, but my understanding was that the bit depth of the ADC correlated with the maximum number of stops of dynamic range:

https://***URL removed***/articles/4653441881/bit-depth-is-about-dynamic-range-not-the-number-of-colors-you-get-to-capture

There are serious issues with Cinema5D's methodology, even if their comparisons are useful. But even 12.7 stops would be too much for a 12 bit ADC was my understanding and to me their results read as significantly more.

Regardless, the S1H has outstanding dynamic range, in my experience more than most cinema cameras with quoted 14 stops of DR (though not Alexa-level by any means), and something doesn't add up here.

[deezid]

4 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I might be misunderstanding something, but my understanding was that the bit depth of the ADC correlated with the maximum number of stops of dynamic range:

https://***URL removed***/articles/4653441881/bit-depth-is-about-dynamic-range-not-the-number-of-colors-you-get-to-capture

There are serious issues with Cinema5D's methodology, even if their comparisons are useful. But even 12.7 stops would be too much for a 12 bit ADC was my understanding and to me their results read as significantly more.

Regardless, the S1H has outstanding dynamic range, in my experience more than most cinema cameras with quoted 14 stops of DR (though not Alexa-level by any means), and something doesn't add up here.

It's actually the most realistic one out there at the moment (Imatest, SNR 0,5).

The 12.7 stops are achieved by using excessive amounts of noise reduction which also leads to many problems in images that aren't entirely static, one could even say Panasonic is cheating.

At least all the issues will be fixed soon and with the Raw output as well as NR OFF (noise reduction -1 setting) coming we will see how the sensor and 12 bit linear output really performs, closer to 12 stops for sure. Having a much more organic image is more important to me than heavily flawed images that do great in Imatest.

[PannySVHS]

@deezid Hey Dennis, how are your findings with the "smaller" of the two, with the S1 in VLOG and 10bit? Does it support VLOG in 25p to 60p in HD? How is the 10bit or especially 10 VLOG image regarding being organic, noise, smearing, digital sharpness? I find my S1 in its 8bit 709 modes super sharp and sometimes a bit paper cut like. It is a nice image in its own right but wow is the 6k to 4k downsampled image sharp! I was wondering if I had a super resolving performer with my Canon FD 20mm at 2.8!

[deezid]

 

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

@deezid Hey Dennis, how are your findings with the "smaller" of the two, with the S1 in VLOG and 10bit? Does it support VLOG in 25p to 60p in HD? How is the 10bit or especially 10 VLOG image regarding being organic, noise, smearing, digital sharpness? I find my S1 in its 8bit 709 modes super sharp and sometimes a bit paper cut like. It is a nice image in its own right but wow is the 6k to 4k downsampled image sharp! I was wondering if I had a super resolving performer with my Canon FD 20mm at 2.8!

In 4k the S1 has a fantastic image using V-Log. No artifacts either. Not a big fan of the HD though, it's not nearly as good as HD on the GH5 or G9 sadly.

In case you need 60P I'd recommend using Cinelike D and convert to V-Log L using this Lut

https://emotivecolor.com/vlog

Should be clean and relatively close in terms of color and gamma but you'll lose like 2 stops of dynamic range.

 

[TheBoogieKnight]

Everything I've ever read on the S1 says the converter is 14-bit. This would make sense as it outputs 14-bit RAW images and even Sony's technical documents state 14-bit so why is it only 12 bit? Just readout speed for video so they had to do that?

 

On an unrelated note, do people generally think an S1H is still worth buying with the R5 around the corner?

[androidlad]

21 minutes ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

Everything I've ever read on the S1 says the converter is 14-bit. This would make sense as it outputs 14-bit RAW images and even Sony's technical documents state 14-bit so why is it only 12 bit? Just readout speed for video so they had to do that?

 

On an unrelated note, do people generally think an S1H is still worth buying with the R5 around the corner?

In stills mode, they use 14bit ADC. In video mode it's 12bit, because to achieve video frame rate (at least 24fps), ADC bit-depth has to be dropped to increase speed.

[TheBoogieKnight]

6 minutes ago, androidlad said:

In stills mode, they use 14bit ADC. In video mode it's 12bit, because to achieve video frame rate (at least 24fps), ADC bit-depth has to be dropped to increase speed.

Thought as much, thank you.

 

Seriously thinking of buying one (can get a great deal with a Ninja) but should I wait for the R5?

[zerocool22]

Yeah I def would go for the R5 instead (will need to wait a bit for some images and specs).

[thebrothersthre3]

10 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I might be misunderstanding something, but my understanding was that the bit depth of the ADC correlated with the maximum number of stops of dynamic range:

https://***URL removed***/articles/4653441881/bit-depth-is-about-dynamic-range-not-the-number-of-colors-you-get-to-capture

There are serious issues with Cinema5D's methodology, even if their comparisons are useful. But even 12.7 stops would be too much for a 12 bit ADC was my understanding and to me their results read as significantly more.

Regardless, the S1H has outstanding dynamic range, in my experience more than most cinema cameras with quoted 14 stops of DR (though not Alexa-level by any means), and something doesn't add up here.

Yeah its more like 12 actual stops of dynamic range. Numbers just depend on your testing methods though. Its one of the reasons I got the URSA mini 4.6k. The 12.6 stops in RAW measured by Cinema 5D are actually genuine as there is no noise reduction going on in RAW. 

[androidlad]

42 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yeah its more like 12 actual stops of dynamic range. Numbers just depend on your testing methods though. Its one of the reasons I got the URSA mini 4.6k. The 12.6 stops in RAW measured by Cinema 5D are actually genuine as there is no noise reduction going on in RAW. 

BRAW is not really RAW in a conventional sense, it's partially debayered and processed. And there's absolutely noise reduction going on in BRAW, however BMD seem to have turned it down on 4.6K G2 vs G1 (12.1 stops in BRAW on G2 vs 12.6 on G1)

[thebrothersthre3]

3 minutes ago, androidlad said:

BRAW is not really RAW in a conventional sense, it's partially debayered and processed. And there's absolutely noise reduction going on in BRAW, however BMD seem to have turned it down on 4.6K G2 vs G1 (12.1 stops in BRAW on G2 vs 12.6 on G1)

I have the OG URSA with CDNG

[HockeyFan12]

3 hours ago, androidlad said:

In stills mode, they use 14bit ADC. In video mode it's 12bit, because to achieve video frame rate (at least 24fps), ADC bit-depth has to be dropped to increase speed.

How do you get more than 12 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC readout? Isn't this impossible by definition? Wouldn't there by a hard ceiling of 12 stops from a 12 bit ADC? See the depreview link above.

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yeah its more like 12 actual stops of dynamic range. Numbers just depend on your testing methods though. Its one of the reasons I got the URSA mini 4.6k. The 12.6 stops in RAW measured by Cinema 5D are actually genuine as there is no noise reduction going on in RAW. 

My issues are that I don't know why Cinema5D uses SNR=2 as the noise floor or why they place the first wedge of the Xyla chart below clipping. SNR=2 seems arbitrary, and their best explanation of why they choose this is it's what gets them a 14 stop measurement from the Alexa, but Arri intentionally underrates its sensors and if you talk with their reps they'll tell you the Amira, Mini, etc. are 15+ stops. And the official number from Arri has always been 14+ anyway. That's why I see the comparisons as useful, but to me the actual measurement I'd derive from the S1H's result are the 13.8 they find at SNR=1 plus a bit more from them placing the first wedge below clipping. So about 14 stops. Likewise all their numbers seem low to me.

Numbers like "usable dynamic range" and Cinema5D's decision to sort of arbitrarily decide a cut off point for noise have been discussed in the past and never that productively. Canon took issue with their results on the C300 Mk II and released their own tests that correlate more closely with 14-15 stops if read traditionally rather than by Cinema5D's arbitrary (however useful for comparison) metrics. If you're interested in useable dynamic range in the field I find Geoff Boyle's over/under tests on CML more helpful anyway as you can see an entire scene and where different channels clip and there are some cameras that clip certain colors sooner or less attractively. Of course the Alexa does best. 

If the S1H results are heavily influenced by noise reduction I don't know. I didn't know the Ursa Mini had no NR at that, that's impressive if true. I haven't had issues with noise reduction on either camera, but I have read about the S1H having ghosting issues for other people so clearly others have. I'm not really concerned with that, though, as I'm not planning to buy either camera. I'm just trying to understand how you can get 14 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC.