Complete list of 4K cameras for filmmakers

[IronFilm]

  

51 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I could put Blackmagic stuff on the list but then you'd argue why Z-Cam, etc. isn't there, and before you know it you've got RED and Arri on it. More simple to keep it to the same class of camera (DSLR / mirrorless / stills), the cameras the blog has always been for.

Could use a price limit as the definition to be included or not? Instead of if it is or isn't a hybrid camera. 
Could even have two categories, such as: sub $5K (so would include the likes of a Z Cam E2-F6 alongside the Panasonic S1H) and sub $2K (E2 M4 vs P4K vs GH5 vs S1 vs Z6 etc)

[Andrew Reid]

No the price limit doesn't define the camera concept.

The design of the camera does.

Z-Cam is totally different in concept to an X-T4.

[IronFilm]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

No the price limit doesn't define the camera concept.

I think the entire reason why people got into using Canon DSLRs (and Panasonic GH series, and Sony NEX, etc) for low budget filmmaking is because they were extremely affordable. Not because they could do stills too. 

If we'd had even just merely an OG BMPCC / Z Cam E1 / Terra 4K back in 2008/2009 then I expect very few people would have purchased the likes of a GH1/T2i/NEX-5/etc specifically to film with. 

Of course now we're spoiled with many more advancements: P6K / E2 series / Mavo / etc

[Andrew Reid]

Blackmagic's first camera came out in the GH2 days (2012).

Very people bought the GH4, GH5, A7R II, A7S II... Yeah right.

In 2009 the situation was GH1 / 5D II... Those were the only choices. Two cameras!! So an affordable 2K cine Z-CAM back then would have been a big third option all on its own but in no way competing for same customers.

Since 2011 most of the action has been with mirrorless and Blackmagic has been the little niche for indie filmmakers only. Until these cameras get built in EVF, proper articulated screens, IBIS and AF all in one body like a mirrorless camera, they remain sensors in a box. Different category.

[IronFilm]

2012 was 4yrs after the first HDSLR was launched. So by then the concept of "DSLR filmmaking" was already firmly entrenched in the indie mindset.  Imagine if the BMCC had launched well before the Nikon D90!

Plus the BMCC EF was just the first generation of cheap cinema alternatives to HDSLRs. Currently the BMPCC / Z Cam E1 / Terra 4K are not the latest we have now, but they're still much more evolved than the BMCC EF was at launch and are cheaper and/or better than the BMCC EF was when announced. 

I think the path of indie/corporate/wedding filmmakers would have taken a very different route if we'd had access to what is currently the BMPCC / Z Cam E1 / Terra 4K (let alone the more advanced models we've got in 2020!) prior to even the Nikon D90 / Panasonic GH1 / Canon T2i / 5Dmk2 arriving. 

 

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I think the path of indie/corporate/wedding filmmakers would have taken a very different route if we'd had access to what is currently the BMPCC / Z Cam E1 / Terra 4K (let alone the more advanced models we've got in 2020!) prior to even the Nikon D90 / Panasonic GH1 / Canon T2i / 5Dmk2 arriving.

LOL I'll tell you where that would have gone... 6 months with the BMPCC, then jacking it in for a C300.

Blackmagic's greatest offering is Resolve.

The cameras are overrated potatos that slow you down and lumber you with a horribly unergonomic rig. Shot missers.

They are not in the same class as mirrorless cameras.

[KnightsFan]

I think @IronFilm is right for narrative indie filmmakers. I can't speak for wedding/corporate/doc people, who may need more mobility, AF, and less rigging. I think even music videos tend to require more mobility than narrative.

In my experience, even the worst Blackmagic camera, the 2.5k EF mount, was preferable over the Panasonic and Sony mirrorless that I also used back in ~2015. The only thing comparable was 5d3 raw, which was unreliable and an even bigger PITA to use (and also more expensive, incidentally).

That said, obviously photo/video hybrids are a different class which does exclude things like the Pocket, or GoPros, etc, so it's a useful categorization.

[Video Hummus]

Sensors in a box that need rigging will always remain niche. Everything in consumer technology grows and heavily favors convenience and ease of use. Sony's news ZV1 vlogging camera is an excellent example of this trend. It fakes bokeh, it smoothes skin, it handles the AF, and sound issues. Putting aside wether it looks good, it's still very easy to use.

The way I want to use my camera requires it to have an EVF, a decent image (vast majority of cameras do), internal recording, an articulating screen, some kind of AF, and weather sealing. I want to pack it in a bag and pull it out and have it ready to go. I don't want to rig a monitor and an external hard drive to get the best out of it. That shit gets annoying fast, no matter how good the image is. I prefer easy and good enough. I like to take pictures, even though I don't consider myself a photographer, and don't want a separate device to do it!

So far modern mirrorless cameras are the best balance of all those requirements, for me.

Would @MrSMW shoot weddings on a RED or ARRI if price wasn't a consideration? My guess is he probably wouldn't because he would need a focus puller, external EVF, and an EasyRig to get through his day instead of his trusty X-T3/4 and a monopod!

[thebrothersthre3]

I am a fan of a camera that needs no additional stuff to use. It just doesn't really exist yet. The Pocket could actually be really really good if it had a much stronger internal battery 2.5x power at least, plus a 1000nit screen. But having to rig up DSLR's is the worst IMHO

[kye]

3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I am a fan of a camera that needs no additional stuff to use. It just doesn't really exist yet.

Of course it exists.  Maybe it doesn't do exactly what you want it to do at the levels of performance that you deem to be a minimum standard, but they do exist.

You can pick up a GoPro or DJI Osmo Action and just go shoot, and with their stabilisation you don't even need any rigging or even a handle. Many people do exactly that.  If you want a more serious image then many of the cameras mentioned are suitable.  There are many times I have just picked up my GH5 and apart from adding a lens and putting on a wrist-strap I haven't added anything.  Oh, a memory card.  ...and a battery.  Oops!  So many additional things required!!

Of course, if you deem that you absolutely need directional audio then no camera will ever be without needing additional stuff because the idea that a manufacturer is going to make a camera with a shotgun microphone built in is just silly.

Wanting a camera that can shoot a Hollywood movie that comes complete out of the box is like wanting a car that can 4wd on the weekends, beat a Lamborghini at the lights, bring home a boot full of building supplies from the hardware store, fit in all your mates to go to the game but park in a small space when you get there, and get 50 miles per gallon.  The only way anything could do all those things is to be modular, and thus, would require "additional stuff to use".

[thebrothersthre3]

9 minutes ago, kye said:

Of course it exists.  Maybe it doesn't do exactly what you want it to do at the levels of performance that you deem to be a minimum standard, but they do exist.

You can pick up a GoPro or DJI Osmo Action and just go shoot, and with their stabilisation you don't even need any rigging or even a handle. Many people do exactly that.  If you want a more serious image then many of the cameras mentioned are suitable.  There are many times I have just picked up my GH5 and apart from adding a lens and putting on a wrist-strap I haven't added anything.  Oh, a memory card.  ...and a battery.  Oops!  So many additional things required!!

Of course, if you deem that you absolutely need directional audio then no camera will ever be without needing additional stuff because the idea that a manufacturer is going to make a camera with a shotgun microphone built in is just silly.

Wanting a camera that can shoot a Hollywood movie that comes complete out of the box is like wanting a car that can 4wd on the weekends, beat a Lamborghini at the lights, bring home a boot full of building supplies from the hardware store, fit in all your mates to go to the game but park in a small space when you get there, and get 50 miles per gallon.  The only way anything could do all those things is to be modular, and thus, would require "additional stuff to use".

Not really, camera manufactures like Blackmagic are very close to making something that really doesn't need anything additional besides like you said maybe a mic. One of Fuji's lower end cameras had a 1000 nit LCD, hopefully we'll see it in the XH2. The GH5 is nice of course, I've owned one twice before. No dual ISO though. The S1H is really close to being pretty much perfect. Once Panasonic gets internal RAW they will be on top in terms of usability, other than AF. 

But yeah I get it, no excuses, every option is pretty great nowadays. 

[MrSMW]

10 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Would @MrSMW shoot weddings on a RED or ARRI if price wasn't a consideration? My guess is he probably wouldn't because he would need a focus puller, external EVF, and an EasyRig to get through his day instead of his trusty X-T3/4 and a monopod!

Absolutely not! Even an external monitor is a big no for me, never mind a gimbal or sliders or anything that isn’t; a body, a lens, something it can stand up on it’s own. The end.

I am a strict one man stealth ninja band. Most weddings/guests don’t realise I am shooting video and that’s the way I like it.

I am under no illusions that I am filming a mooovie. Anyone who does at a wedding is delusional.

I do call it filmmaking in my spiel to clients but only because I do want them to think of what I do as something a bit more considered than the stereotype of a ‘wedding video’ and partly because I do actually consider what I am doing with at least a nod to cinematography. Intent-wise at least. 

My priorities are simple:

1: has to be transported and operated by one person (me) and alongside any/all stills photography gear and capture.

2: has to be able to happen at the same time as photography, hence which it needs to be on either a freestanding monopod (clips) or tripod (ceremony/speeches).

3: has to be 4K 60p (to punch in, level horizons, warp stabilise if needs be) because so much of my end result is slowed in post.

If anything, I’d go even smaller and when I saw this new Sony announced yesterday, having used a 100v before, I thought for a nanosecond “maybe...” but then the reality of no 4K 60p and Toneh f7000 kicked in. Losers.

XT3 is for my specific needs my favoured current option and I think more than good enough.

I am interested in the XT4 as a pure stills machine.

I am always interested in getting the best/a better output simply for my own amusement but the reality is, at this level, the kit is already good enough so the biggest difference is the operator.

[no_connection]

What cameras on the list do 4k 60p (internal) and also external?

[Matt James Smith ?]

On 5/24/2020 at 12:06 AM, BTM_Pix said:

Leica D-LUX/D-LUX7

Leica V-LUX/V-LUX5

Nikon D500

Nikon D5

Panasonic FZ1000/2000/2500

Panasonic LX10/15

It is a camcorder, really, and it's stills mode is abysmal, but it is marketed as a hybrid, does have a dedicated stills mode (and taller sensor in stills mode). It's in a weird category of its own really. While it has a lot of issues, its 4:2:2 305mbps C-log 4K is a bit special IMO: the venerable XC10/XC15! 

[BTM_Pix]

24 minutes ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

It is a camcorder, really, and it's stills mode is abysmal, but it is marketed as a hybrid, does have a dedicated stills mode (and taller sensor in stills mode). It's in a weird category of its own really. While it has a lot of issues, its 4:2:2 305mbps C-log 4K is a bit special IMO: the venerable XC10/XC15! 

It has a dedicated stills/video selector switch so, yeah, I'd say it counts.

I've said it here before but I've always had a bit of hankering for an XC-10 at the right price and fully expected to be able to pick a used one up for under £500 a long, long time ago but here we are a couple of weeks off the fifth anniversary of it being launched and it is still holding its price at nearly twice that !

 

[Matt James Smith ?]

46 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It has a dedicated stills/video selector switch so, yeah, I'd say it counts.

I've said it here before but I've always had a bit of hankering for an XC-10 at the right price and fully expected to be able to pick a used one up for under £500 a long, long time ago but here we are a couple of weeks off the fifth anniversary of it being launched and it is still holding its price at nearly twice that !

 

I’ve been shooting with mine consistently since 2016. It’s a fantastic camera when you know it’s quirks and limitations. No good for low light or for matching with shallow DOF footage, but the codec is rock solid, it grades beautifully and the colours pop. Slap a bit of film concert on XC10 footage and it looks very S16- like.

The IS is incredible - steady handheld footage at 480mm (in 2x crop mode)! - and it’s form factor is great. Canon Rumors has suggested a few times Xanon is working on an interchangeable lens version. Canon even filed a patent for an XC10 body with a custom speedbooster! Is it  possible this will be the first RF-mount cinema camera??

[BTM_Pix]

1 minute ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

I’ve been shooting with mine consistently since 2016. It’s a fantastic camera when you know it’s quirks and limitations. No good for low light or for matching with shallow DOF footage, but the codec is rock solid, it grades beautifully and the colours pop. Slap a bit of film concert on XC10 footage and it looks very S16- like.

The IS is incredible - steady handheld footage at 480mm (in 2x crop mode)! - and it’s form factor is great. 

If you sold it tomorrow you'd definitely have had your money's worth out of it!

I've always liked the output that I've seen from it.

3 minutes ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

Is it  possible this will be the first RF-mount cinema camera??

I think RED have beaten them to it by just starting to ship the Komodo.

[Matt James Smith ?]

5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

If you sold it tomorrow you'd definitely have had your money's worth out of it!

I've always liked the output that I've seen from it.

I think RED have beaten them to it by just starting to ship the Komodo.

Might sell it soon, along with my C100MkII (another under-appreciated camera that still holds up today IMO). Waiting for R5 reviews before I decide between switching to an R5 or a C200. Hard choice.

[Matt James Smith ?]

 

This is all XC10. Most of it on a Ronin S. Just a home movie but it gives an idea of image quality.

[Andrew Reid]

I like the XC-10 as a concept. But it needed a sequel.

I would caution against bothering with it in 2020. Far better results can be had by putting the Fuji 18-135mm on an X-T4.

Neil Matsumoto did a great review of the XC10. Have a look at the cons... https://***URL removed***/reviews/crossing-the-bridge-canon-xc10-review

No Dual Pixel AF on the XC10. I found the AF to be very hesitant in 4K. It did have a decent 1080/60p mode with very capable stabilisation in that mode, but the stabilisation in 4K was nowhere near as impressive, and far less impressive than an X-T4 in 2020.

Detail in 4K is a bit scratchy. Looks pixel binned even though it isn't.

Low light is quite poor and stills are JPEG only. No RAW mode of any sort!!

The screen is nice but the loupe a bit daft and blocks the controls. No EVF.

The ND filter is quite weak, so in sunlight you need to add extra which defeats the whole point of the built in one :)

Also the lens is quite slow especially at long end.

But it was a concept that deserved a bigger effort from Canon and it never got it!

Bit like 1D C didn't!

So yeah - X-T4 a way better shot getter, with much larger S35 sensor, and optics in a different league. Ergonomically and with regards 5 axis IBIS it's also a lot nicer to use than the XC-10. The AF is far better, which is important for run & gun.