Video is difficult

[Thpriest]

7 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

In all honesty I’ve grown quite tired of the larger setups, sometimes it feels like you’re training to move houses rather than create art. Saying that, it depends on the subject matter. If I’m totally engrossed in the subject, I don’t feel the pain as much. 

Overall I’ll be focusing on smaller setups with less stress and more control. 

With gear, I’m looking to completely overhaul my gear and go smaller on everything. I’m going to sell most of what I have and replace them with smaller and lighter versions of stuff I only need. 

Over the last 2 years I moved away from the Canon C100, big tripod, heavy lenses etc to the GH5 and GH5S and couldn't be happier. They are perfect for 90+% of the jobs I have and for the rest they do just fine as well. 

I'm on a mission to do this with everything, lights etc. 

Another thing is that video is my profession and I chose not to do it in my free time unless it's a project that really interests me for whatever reason. But I am finding that photography is different and that I feel I want to start taking my GX85 out with a Voigtlander and just shoot some nice photos to relax. Video isn't relaxing!!!

[MrSMW]

I'm going to go the other way and say I find video 'easier' (for want of a better term).

That's coming from someone who started out as a photographer 20+ years ago with film, migrated to digital and started adding a video element to my work 10+ years ago.

I think it's why I find video 'easier'. I understand the kind of weddings I shoot intimately, - what people will do, how the light works etc in pretty much any given situation. After 700+ of the things, I'd hope so!

I think because of that, my video work has become an extension or development of my photography in that I shoot video in pretty much the same way as I do photography, albeit with a freestanding monopod so the end result is not that much different other than the scene moves rather than is a snapshot of 1/250th of a second.

70-75% of my weddings I get booked for both, ie, photography and video and it's just normal for me to do this.

If I had to pick one though for the next 10 (and last 10) years of my career, I'd pick video from an overall creative viewpoint as I find I can develop and push this further than I can my photography.

It's definitely easier though for the average Joe to just pick up a camera and shoot stills these days and video does have a higher skill set.

If I took things outside of my environment, ie, weddings, I don't know but on the few occasions I do, it hasn't been much different.

[Michael Steiner]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

A musician strikes his instrument and that's the art.

A photographer uses his instinct and inner vision, minds-eye, that's his art.

A filmmaker - fuck. Where to begin.

Yes... that's kind of true, but I also find this is one of the aspects of creating motion pictures I like most: We have the privilege to combine all sorts of media and arts to tell a story: framing, movement, audio, music, graphics, even spoken or written text... The palette of ingredients and tools for us filmmakers is kind of infinite. 

[Kisaha]

VIDEO IS EASY

that is what they will tell you!

Real life facts that I am thinking about a lot the last couple of weeks

1) friend wants to be a youtuber, she wants to learn everything about editing, equipment, lights, sound, and everything in between. Whatever I learned in 20+ experience and a few degrees, she wants in one afternoon.

2) we have a small team, doing internet videos, try to fit 15-20 small ones per day of shooting, the team is a DP with 30+ years of experience at the highest level, me with 20+ years, and our editor 15+ years at the highest level (for our country the highest level, don't get me wrong) and we have a young guy helping building his experience now.

At one time, the 25 years old gal doing social media for the client, comes to see. She stayed for an hour,  she walked all the time with high heels, played with her phone, and the first thing she said, "I want that to be like this", after half an hour trying to explain her that what she wanted wasn't applicable in this prouction, she left..we lost almost an hour because of her and we missed our brake because we didn't have time for the rest.

3) on another such video, same team, another girl supervising social media for the client, never present on set, send a text "maybe it is better for me to edit the videos, what program do you use so I can watch some tutorials today and do the videos in the weekend?", that was the actual text message...

4) the last, a lot, years, I have met a lot 22-25 year old kids introducing themselves as "DoP" or "director". I have never heard, "I am trying to do camera", or "I would like to be part of a production".

5) In the past, I had a director, that withouht being in the busniness, through social networking, connections, luck, and very low salary has become a director!

Knowns nothing about anything, but through youtube videos and director's masterclasses believes he is one of the best in the business! Very proud that became a director without experience and no studies, really having no clue at all. I can't even explain how terrible is to become something you do not deserve, and there is no direction ever, mostly the shooting was happening because of some experienced actors, the DP and me. Crazy stuff..There are others like him coming.

6) wedding video and photography...what a joke..I have met policemen, DJs, wood cutters, military personel, and so many different people, that occasionally, or more professionally are doing weddings. So many of them, are bringing their wives/girlfriends (I have seen that in video mostly), and boyfriends/husbands ( I have seen that in photography mostly) to do second photo camera, or video, or second/third video.

So many bad experiences on weddings, I should write a comedy book.

7) we were discussing with an old DoP about instagram recently ( I do not have, I am not familiar at all with it), and he was telling me that 8/10 photos on instagram have a crazy horizon at the back for no particular reason at all..Of course there is a reason, 101 in photography isn't needed anymore. 

So, video is easy, just press the RED button.

[IronFilm]

51 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

So, video is easy, just press the RED button.

Please don't say that to the President. 

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

VIDEO IS EASY

that is what they will tell you!

Interesting perspective.
The unreasonable client has always existed of course.

I believe the "video is easy" mindset comes from the easy and cheap access to fairly high end looking equipment that was never an option before. The entry into the industry is just so easy and cheap. People just don't know any better. Coupled with the new age mindset of "just do it" rather than maybe a traditional work your way up slowly from the bottom approach.

I reluctantly call myself a DP or Gaffer, but it depends who I am talking to lol. Its hard to gauge my own experience as I work in the really low end indie level where I am often the most experienced person on set. That said I've seen far less experienced people than me calling themselves a DP. But I am always honest about my experience level.

Its a lot easier to buy your way into the industry than it was before as equipment is way easier to use. Before digital being able to get decent wedding photos was so much more difficult. Not because of the price but you actually had to be pretty dang good at getting nice compositions and exposing properly. Now you can take 40 photos every minute and as long as you get 100 decent ones out of 5000 you are not doing so bad.

I do sometimes worry about the future of my job security. At the same time I've realized, like this thread points out, even with all the technology we have now, its still very very hard to make something that is watchable.
 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

6) wedding video and photography...what a joke..I have met policemen, DJs, wood cutters, military personel, and so many different people, that occasionally, or more professionally are doing weddings. So many of them, are bringing their wives/girlfriends (I have seen that in video mostly), and boyfriends/husbands ( I have seen that in photography mostly) to do second photo camera, or video, or second/third video.

So many bad experiences on weddings, I should write a comedy book.

I keep thinking I should write two: one a guide for couples and the other, dishing the dirt and lifting the lid on how a lot of this industry actually operates.

I actually got into video myself because of those men (and they always were and every one of them in the UK was "ex-BBC" and looked like they had stolen one of the cameras used to film the studio news) who always brought their wife/girlfriend/mistress for no apparent reason other than to stand by his side all day, ie, as a photographer, got pretty fed up very quickly with the muppets so got myself a pet videographer (my brother) to come stand by me (the photographer) rather than 3 feet from the B&G all day...and we went from there.

 

[Kisaha]

7 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Interesting perspective.
The unreasonable client has always existed of course.

I believe the "video is easy" mindset comes from the easy and cheap access to fairly high end looking equipment that was never an option before. The entry into the industry is just so easy and cheap. People just don't know any better. Coupled with the new age mindset of "just do it" rather than maybe a traditional work your way up slowly from the bottom approach.

I reluctantly call myself a DP or Gaffer, but it depends who I am talking to lol. Its hard to gauge my own experience as I work in the really low end indie level where I am often the most experienced person on set. That said I've seen far less experienced people than me calling themselves a DP. But I am always honest about my experience level.

Its a lot easier to buy your way into the industry than it was before as equipment is way easier to use. Before digital being able to get decent wedding photos was so much more difficult. Not because of the price but you actually had to be pretty dang good at getting nice compositions and exposing properly. Now you can take 40 photos every minute and as long as you get 100 decent ones out of 5000 you are not doing so bad.

I do sometimes worry about the future of my job security. At the same time I've realized, like this thread points out, even with all the technology we have now, its still very very hard to make something that is watchable.
 

I would like to hear more from you, as you are a fairly young guy into the industry, more connected with the 20 something generation, and you seem to have a good and sensible approach of things.

This new mindset of "just do it", as you mention above, is what interests me more.

Education seems to be not only irrelevant, but a negative - and I heard that a lot - especially in the wedding scene, most of the people are "I didn't study anything relative, but that is a good thing, because I am free to create on my own terms", I heard that a lot. Then, if you study, or work your way up, is a huge minus, why to waste effort, sweat, time and money when you can go straight to the top?! 

Thanks for your honest comment, and I would like to hear more for the YOLO generation - as I call it.

I am a father myself, and there is not even one chance that my kids are not going to learn, or read, a lot in their lives!

I guess I am old school, but old school is good sometimes. Life is not easy, but if you try reasonably, it can be good fun!

 

 

[Geoff CB]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

 

4) the last, a lot, years, I have met a lot 22-25 year old kids introducing themselves as "DoP" or "director". I have never heard, "I am trying to do camera", or "I would like to be part of a production".

 

This is a huge aspect for a lot of people around me. I've also constantly been asked why I don't want to direct myself. The answer is that I hold people around me and myself to a standard that I can never reach, and never ever enjoy the process of properly directing.

I wished I had realized that sooner. 

I'm trying right now to probably do more color grading and being a cinematographer. But honestly, I love doing color work more than anything, and there are very few aspiring colorists compared to the huge volume of aspiring directors and DOPs.

I think far more people would find success if they follow a niche.

Another huge common occurrence are DOP's that are just trying to be directors, and step on the directors toes on set.

[thebrothersthre3]

11 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I would like to hear more from you, as you are a fairly young guy into the industry, more connected with the 20 something generation, and you seem to have a good and sensible approach of things.

This new mindset of "just do it", as you mention above, is what interests me more.

Education seems to be not only irrelevant, but a negative - and I heard that a lot - especially in the wedding scene, most of the people are "I didn't study anything relative, but that is a good thing, because I am free to create on my own terms", I heard that a lot. Then, if you study, or work your way up, is a huge minus, why to waste effort, sweat, time and money when you can go straight to the top?! 

Thanks for your honest comment, and I would like to hear more for the YOLO generation - as I call it.

I am a father myself, and there is not even one chance that my kids are not going to learn, or read, a lot in their lives!

I guess I am old school, but old school is good sometimes. Life is not easy, but if you try reasonably, it can be good fun!

 

Yeah if there was a clearer path to education I'd definitely take it. From what I have seen film schools are often kind of a joke. At least that is my opinion after having worked with multiple students from these schools. I will also say everyone of these students have been very talented people. I just don't think the schools have taught them much. I learned more on my own from simply making my own films, working with other people, reading books, and articles/youtube. I did take the time to actually buy books on lighting, cinematography, and sound early on though. I feel like reading is unheard of these days unless its an online article haha. 

Interestingly I've found that a lot of online information especially mainstream stuff is really poor. It seems to often be written or produced by people who know very little about the actual subject but rather are just good at marketing themselves. Most filmmaking stuff on youtube is so basic and generic. Most experienced people are busy actually working and have no time for YouTube. So rather we get these wannabe filmmakers who are really just youtubers and there experience doesn't really go beyond that. 

There are exceptions to this of course. 

As to the "just do it" attitude I think its complicated. A lot of it comes from YouTube guru's, motivators and entrepreneurs. The big thing with YouTube is you just need to convince people you are an expert so they will buy your classes. I just saw a youtube ad the other day and it was a 15 year old kid talking about marketing! The kid was wearing braces haha. He was saying how he learned from the best and wants to tell you what to do with your money. It was completely ridiculous. At least someone like Tai Lopez took the time to get a lambo and huge Cali house to convince people he was a finance genius. 

Its the idea that to achieve something you just need to jump into it and fail until you succeed. There is of course truth to that but people take it to the extreme. Claiming to be something you are not professionally is fraudulent. I have worked wedding jobs being the sole videographer with very little experience. I feel bad as I often did a not so great job(at least in my opinion). That said my employers never told me I did anything wrong and continued to hire me. They also hired me in the first place despite my inexperience so I blame it on them and actually have since quit working with them. They did give me the opportunity to learn by failing and I think I am decent at doing weddings now. That said I'd much rather have learned under someone's wing rather than the way I went through it. 

A big thing now is these wedding companies that contract videographers to shoot their weddings. They claim to have award winning weddings(whatever that means?), yet they don't actually have a specific group of videographers. They contract random people from all over the place so the product they deliver has no consistency. Maybe some of their weddings are shot by an industry professional but others are shot by someone who's doing it for the first time. Their means of vetting who they hire is also a joke. 

[FranciscoB]

I think it would be usefull to separate the several areas of filmaking and not generalize. I did a few weddings during one summer and I hated it. People are unconfortable around cameras and just want to enjoy the wedding. As for photography, people have an instant gratification and can later post the pictures on social media, so the attittude is different towards photographers.

For commercials you have to deal with the client. Most of the times you have to compromise or do what your client wants, even when you know it's shit. There's less chance of creating "your" own commercial, as you're getting paid for a specific purpose. My stuff is low budget, so the hability to do something great is more difficult. What I've gotten from it is that I don't mind to get a little less money for more time. It's less stressfull and more enjoyable. But it's not always possible.

For corporate, my experience is that I had less people watching over my shoulder but people rely a lot on interviews. There's a formula that the client wants and that's it.  Normal people don't do so well on camera under pressure. So It's always a huge amount of time for people to be able to speak full sentences for the camera. I think I would behave the same way. And then you deal with terrible lighting and ugly ass interiors.

I watch this forum for a while now and it's mostly about gear talk. That's great but it's only a small part of the conversation. Some people work on the industry and some don't. There's a lot of cynicism towards the industry and some is valid. My recommendation is for people to lose the gear addiction and think of a theme that they would like to explore. In photography or video. Some ideas don't need a lot of money. Just time and dedication.

[thebrothersthre3]

16 minutes ago, FranciscoB said:

I think it would be usefull to separate the several areas of filmaking and not generalize. I did a few weddings during one summer and I hated it. People are unconfortable around cameras and just want to enjoy the wedding. As for photography, people have an instant gratification and can later post the pictures on social media, so the attittude is different towards photographers.

For commercials you have to deal with the client. Most of the times you have to compromise or do what your client wants, even when you know it's shit. There's less chance of creating "your" own commercial, as you're getting paid for a specific purpose. My stuff is low budget, so the hability to do something great is more difficult. What I've gotten from it is that I don't mind to get a little less money for more time. It's less stressfull and more enjoyable. But it's not always possible.

For corporate, my experience is that I had less people watching over my shoulder but people rely a lot on interviews. There's a formula that the client wants and that's it.  Normal people don't do so well on camera under pressure. So It's always a huge amount of time for people to be able to speak full sentences for the camera. I think I would behave the same way. And then you deal with terrible lighting and ugly ass interiors.

I watch this forum for a while now and it's mostly about gear talk. That's great but it's only a small part of the conversation. Some people work on the industry and some don't. There's a lot of cynicism towards the industry and some is valid. My recommendation is for people to lose the gear addiction and think of a theme that they would like to explore. In photography or video. Some ideas don't need a lot of money. Just time and dedication.

Completely agree. I think it just comes down to people don't want to talk about the difficult things. Gear is fun and stress free(mostly lol). 

I also agree on weddings. They can be a lot of fun (depending on the couple). The best wedding I did was where the family was just super comfortable with each other. They interacted so genuinely all the time, I was just capturing who they are. But like you said a lot of people freeze up in front of a camera. 

It is an odd thing though. A big thing now is filming couple's reading the letters they wrote to each other prior to the wedding. Its such a private moment to film, kind of odd. If I get married I'll want the ceremony filmed but that is it. And I want the videographers to be all the way in the back and stay there haha. The whole flashy wedding video montages are bizarre to me. This is my life we are talking about not some social media event.

[FranciscoB]

The wedding industry would lead to a whole different conversation.😅 I find it bizarre that the weddings i've worked on, the couple never rested, was hungry and tired by the time dinner was on. Always taking pictures and doing something for the video. It's ridiculous but it has become a show for the cameras and not for the couple and family. Anyway, I think that would be best to speak of this in another topic.

[rawshooter]

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yeah. I know exactly the feeling. I just want to do the art bit... The rest of it is truly exausting and haphazards sometimes.

Regarding the gear, it gets in the way for video like it doesn't for stills. Gimbals, tripods, it all slows me down too much. I want to strip all that back.

Experimental filmmaker legend Maya Deren had an excellent take on this,  in 1959! Her text "Amateur versus Professional" is worth quoting in its entirety:

The major obstacle for amateur film-makers is their own sense of inferiority vis-a-vis professional productions. The very classification “amateur” has an apologetic ring. But that very word – from the Latin “amateur” – “lover” means one who does something for the love of the thing rather than for economic reasons or necessity. And this is the meaning from which the amateur film-maker should take his clue. Instead of envying the script and dialogue writers, the trained actors, the elaborate staffs and sets, the enormous production budgets of the professional film, the amateur should make use of the one great advantage which all professionals envy him, namely, freedom – both artistic and physical.

Artistic freedom means that the amateur film-maker is never forced to sacrifice visual drama and beauty to a stream of words, words, words, words, to the relentless activity and explanations of a plot, or to the display of a star or a sponsor’s product; nor is the amateur production expected to return profit on a huge investment by holding the attention of a massive and motley audience for 90 minutes.Like the amateur still-photographer, the amateur film-maker can devote himself to capturing the poetry and beauty of places and events and, since he is using a motion picture camera, he can explore the vast world of the beauty of movement. (One of the films winning Honorable Mention in the 1958 Creative Film Awards was ROUND AND SQUARE, a poetic, rhythmic treatment of the dancing lights of cars as they streamed down highways, under bridges, etc.) Instead of trying to invent a plot that moves, use the movement of wind, or water, children, people, elevators, balls, etc. as a poem might celebrate these. And use your freedom to experiment with visual ideas; your mistakes will not get you fired.

Physical freedom includes time freedom – a freedom from budget imposed deadlines. But above all, the amateur film-maker, with his small, light-weight equipment, has an inconspicuousness (for candid shooting) and a physical mobility which is well the envy of most professionals, burdened as they are by their many-ton monsters, cables and crews. Don’t forget that no tripod has yet been built which is as miraculously versatile in movement as the complex system of supports, joints, muscles, and nerves which is the human body, which, with a bit of practice, makes possible the enormous variety of camera angles and visual action. You have all this, and a brain too, in one neat, compact, mobile package.

Cameras do not make films; film-makers make films. Improve your films not by adding more equipment and personnel but by using what you have to its fullest capacity. The most important part of your equipment is yourself: your mobile body, your imaginative mind, and your freedom to use both. Make sure you do use them.

https://hambrecine.com/2013/12/10/amateur-versus-professional/ (also includes a PDF of this text.)

- She shot all her films on a 16mm Bolex H16 btw.

[noone]

But but but Video IS easy!     So is stills photography.

FILM making on the other hand is very difficult.

I am not now and never will be a film maker.     

Every time I tried, my mind would just be blank (permanent writers block??).

 

  I am (I think) a reasonable photographer and my videos  pretty much consist of bands playing songs live and that is as simple as finding a spot, putting the camera on a tripod with mic facing the band, set camera to suit and hit record and turn off after the song.    From time to time a few very short videos experimenting with stuff as well.      The new little Sony vlogging RX1## camera would be great for me (not that i will get it) I would not use it for vlogging but to do the same as i do with my A7s for recording songs but in a tiny package that would make it even easier.

[Video Hummus]

4 hours ago, rawshooter said:

Don’t forget that no tripod has yet been built which is as miraculously versatile in movement as the complex system of supports, joints, muscles, and nerves which is the human body, which, with a bit of practice, makes possible the enormous variety of camera angles and visual action. You have all this, and a brain too, in one neat, compact, mobile package.

I love this and can't agree more! Plus you can never forget it!

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, noone said:

 I am (I think) a reasonable photographer and my videos  pretty much consist of bands playing songs live and that is as simple as finding a spot, putting the camera on a tripod with mic facing the band, set camera to suit and hit record and turn off after the song.    From time to time a few very short videos experimenting with stuff as well.      The new little Sony vlogging RX1## camera would be great for me (not that i will get it) I would not use it for vlogging but to do the same as i do with my A7s for recording songs but in a tiny package that would make it even easier.

Those types of videos are fairly easy but even then you may have to deal with audio (maybe) which makes it more involved. It gets worse when you need a multi cam setup and say you are filming an orchestra. Then you need someone directing you through a head set on when to switch to what instrument. Still a lot easier than filmmaking but its way more involved than photography. 

[noone]

Just now, thebrothersthre3 said:

Those types of videos are fairly easy but even then you may have to deal with audio (maybe) which makes it more involved. It gets worse when you need a multi cam setup and say you are filming an orchestra. Then you need someone directing you through a head set on when to switch to what instrument. Still a lot easier than filmmaking but its way more involved than photography. 

I just used either a Zoom H1 or a cheap mic on the hotshoe and the audio was fine (I have no desire to shoot an orchestra though I have shot some classical stuff as stills....I will do everything from metal to jazz and more).      These are mostly pub/club gigs with a fair bit of crowd noise often which is why I need something other than the camera mic but it is still easy and not having the audio clip/too loud is pretty much it.    Not going to be other than what was heard there at the time .

Not going to do multicam either, just me with a camera and letting the band do the work.      I do like to use my 17mm tilt shift architecture lens close to the "stage" with all band members visible (never had an issue taking it into a mosh pit yet).

My H1 died before my first A7s did and I have not done much of this lately (plus with the virus there have not been any gigs).

I do want a new mic (will just settle for a  cheap Rode from JB-Hi-Fi) and have a "new" old lens to test so have a band in mind to try it with as soon as things are back to normal.

[Kisaha]

18 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Those types of videos are fairly easy but even then you may have to deal with audio (maybe) which makes it more involved. It gets worse when you need a multi cam setup and say you are filming an orchestra. Then you need someone directing you through a head set on when to switch to what instrument. Still a lot easier than filmmaking but its way more involved than photography. 

Ι paid a fairly experienced camera operator to do a little camera job for me of a traditional dance night, almost a 50 years old guy, with a steady camera on a tripod for the wide, and another on a monopod for closer looks, and the footage is terrible! He missed almost all the things he should capture. He started as a photographer, and turned to video after the 5DMKII revolution, and obviously never got it...

Changing framing way too fast. Moves were terrible and non usable. 

I have some experience now with music and live performanes, and I believe I am quite good (I am a trained musician anyway), but some things are just common sense, I mean, if the goddamn guitarist is soloing, just zoom in a little, don't go to the drummer! He missed stuff like that!

Some of those lives (especially with dance groups) I put 4-6 cameras. It is a nightmare after to edit of course, but it can be impressive, and it is a lot better and different than the usual stuff. I also charge a bit more, but not what I should.

[Chrille]

I think photography and shooting video are just different fields. I even feel it when i am on holiday and i try to go back and forth between shooting video and taking pictures - it seems to need different parts of the brain. 

What i really like about shooting video (big or small) is that you start with some kind of concept and you go and shoot the video. After the shoot you sit in editing with the new material and wondering wether everything will work out. If it works out it's  nice. 

I experience the same problems that Andrew is mentioning quite often as well. A Zoom to early, ibis kicking in, a Lut working totally different in a slightly different light condition. It's something that is strange about new cameras: It's very seldom that you are really positively surprised from what you get be accident - as in analog photography or sometimes even in Mini-DV where you accidently had created that "looks like film". 

Nevertheless i feel that with every video you add something to your knowledge arsenal that you can build upon. In a perfect world you would always see in which direction you want to grow - be it lighting, concept, directing, working with a bigger team, etc. 

As to the whole "young people don't know" what they are doing thing - i believe it's easier to get to the mid level these days (as it's vast), but going to the top level still is as hard as 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Ridley Scott compared his first commercial work to instagram jobs in a recent interview - shooting 2-3 commercials per week (as Director and DOP), and i believe he was in his mid 20s as well at the time.