Tascam 60D MKII replacement suggestions

[josdr]

Hello, I have a Tascam 60d mkii paired with a rode ntg-2 mike. I am not very happy with the tascam and would like to replace it without breaking the bank .  I cannot afford new mix pre 3 so that is out of the question 😄, but could you recommend a recorder that is a step up from what I have now (either new or used)? 

Thank you very much in advance.

[IronFilm]

Zoom F4

I think it is a bit pointless getting anything else below that, especially when you already have the Tascam DR60Dmk2. 

As the Zoom F series (and the MixPre series too) offers so so so much value for money, they're leaps and bounds above anything else. (to give a camera analogy, would you bother with a GH5/a7S/5Dmk4 if an EVA1/FS7/UMP cost only a couple of hundred of bucks extra? Most commercial shooters would say "nope!" That's the case with the Zoom F series, they've brought features/specs/quality that used to be far more expensive, down to very very low and affordable prices. Why settle for anything less?)

The other issue, is that when you look in the world of non-F/MixPre series recorders and exclude them from consideration for a moment, then the Tascam DR60Dmk2 is damn good value itself in the "no budget" category. 

Sure, you could look around for something like a secondhand Tascam DR70D / Tascam DR680mk1 / Roland R44 / etc that could be found for only a little bit more money than a DR60Dmk2 but less than a Zoom F4 costs. 

However all of those other options merely give you extra channels over the DR60D, plus perhaps an extra little tweak or two, here or there, of benefits. But nothing at all which is a real step forward in features/specs/quality over your DR60Dmk2. 

So unless you DESPERATELY need "more channels" but can't afford a Zoom F4 (hint: you don't need more channels, not at this budget level), then I don't see why you should do anything else but stick with your Tascam DR60Dmk2 for longer into the future until you can afford a Zoom F series (or a MixPre series). 
 

[josdr]

No I definitely do not need more channels 😄😄 and I must confess that a used zoom f4 was on my mind . I may perhaps have a faulty tascam since my noise level is too great and I have been put off in keeping it. Thank you very much for your detailed suggestion. I appreciate that you took the time to formulate it and advice me. 

[bjohn]

Agree with Zoom F4, but in terms of the Zoom F series the one I'd avoid is the Zoom F1. It's brilliantly small but has a number of issues that make it a dealbreaker for me: 1) there's some sort of EQ going on in the plug-in power preamp (for lav mics or other mics); it seems optimized for voice which I guess makes sense since you'd mainly use a lav mic there, but makes it near useless for recording ambient sounds with binaural or omni mics that use plug-in power. 2) Gain is set only in steps; if you want precisely controllable gain you need to buy one of the Zoom mics (shotgun, M/S, X/Y, etc.) that attach to the front of the recorder. With these, recording quality is acceptable but nothing to write home about. I bought the M/S mic but regret having sunk more money into this recorder as I only use it when I need the small size and the ability to mount on camera (which I never do unless I absolutely have to). I've been spoiled by the sound quality from the MixPre series, so the F1 spends most of its time sitting at home in a box.

[josdr]

I keep reading about the mix pre's but have never handled one so I have no amateurish idea on how good they really are at this price level 😄. I cannot afford one for now so that is that. I had a look for  zoom F4's, cannot find any used ones at the moment. Some vendors have them marked as end of life products...weird.

[bjohn]

Can you not find any used first-generation MixPre for sale? Now that the second generation is available with 32-bit floating point, a lot of people have been selling their first-generation recorders. Having 32-bit float can be useful for location sound when level changes are unpredictable, but plenty of people managed just fine for decades without it. I'm still using a first-generation MixPre 6 and have no plans to upgrade to the new generation.

[josdr]

2 minutes ago, bjohn said:

Can you not find any used first-generation MixPre for sale? Now that the second generation is available with 32-bit floating point, a lot of people have been selling their first-generation recorders. Having 32-bit float can be useful for location sound when level changes are unpredictable, but plenty of people managed just fine for decades without it. I'm still using a first-generation MixPre 6 and have no plans to upgrade to the new generation.

Lol I did not even know that there was a first gen one 😄. I can buy something that is Europe sourced but first i will have to find it and apart from ebay and these forums i am unsure on where to look

[KnightsFan]

46 minutes ago, josdr said:

I had a look for  zoom F4's, cannot find any used ones at the moment.

There's one on ebay from Adorama at the moment. I think it ships internationally

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zoom-F4-Multitrack-Field-Recorder-with-Timecode-6-Inputs-8-Tracks-SKU1256834/254610621129?hash=item3b47f9c2c9:g:q2gAAOSw0Yxez7qE

[josdr]

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

There's one on ebay from Adorama at the moment. I think it ships internationally

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zoom-F4-Multitrack-Field-Recorder-with-Timecode-6-Inputs-8-Tracks-SKU1256834/254610621129?hash=item3b47f9c2c9:g:q2gAAOSw0Yxez7qE

Thanks for that. Unfortunately import taxes plus extraordinary courier handling charges make this a no.

[independent]

Try a fostex fr2le. Very low noise and dirt cheap secondhand. Built like a consumer radio from the 80s, but still kicking.

 

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, josdr said:

No I definitely do not need more channels 😄😄 and I must confess that a used zoom f4 was on my mind . I may perhaps have a faulty tascam since my noise level is too great and I have been put off in keeping it. Thank you very much for your detailed suggestion. I appreciate that you took the time to formulate it and advice me. 

Your NTG2 isn't exactly a quiet microphone. 
Plus usually it is a person's technique more than their gear which makes the result unbearably noisy. 

For an example of awful technique, I experienced that first hand yesterday! Was cycling around town, and got interviewed by an agency crew out doing voxpops for their client's campaign. 

Was a very small "crew" of 3:
The person doing the interviewing
A person handholding a Sony a7 series camera (with a rodelink on it, I assume the interviewer was wearing the transmitter)
A 3rd person, who was holding a Zoom H6 *(and NOTHING ELSE! Yes, just the H6 by itself! wtf)

So was interviewed by them, and I couldn't but help ask him "would you like me to hold that for you?" Because he was holding it soooooo faaaaaaaar AWAY If you're not going to swing a boom, or use a stick mic, at least hold the H6 in closer!

I really had to restrain myself yesterday

Like when he was saying "it's very directional, works great!" BUT IT IS A HANDHELD ZOOM!! With an XY capsule on it!!!! arrrggghhh

Not to mention, HOW. FAR. AWAY. he was standing from me

It wasn't even like he was trying to reach out with his arm to get closer or anything, he was just holding the Zoom H6 by his side

For half a second I was tempted to take pity on them, go back home to grab a length of XLR cable and a shotgun or a reporter's mic so they could use that today instead. But meh, I was running behind on some deliveries yesterday so had to go do those asap

It wasn't like we were standing next to a water fountain while interviewing me or anything like that

Oh hang on

THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE DOING
(next to the waterfountain/waterfall in the park behind the Cathedral downtown)

[FranciscoB]

So... in the range of 350€ you guys recommend the zoom f4? There's a few on my local market. Not going to buy anything now but if I need a recorder in the future.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, FranciscoB said:

So... in the range of 350€ you guys recommend the zoom f4?

Yes, unless you can get lucky and score a MixPre3 for cheap. (and don't mind dropping down your number of max channels from four with the DR60D to three with the MixPre3)

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, bjohn said:

Agree with Zoom F4, but in terms of the Zoom F series the one I'd avoid is the Zoom F1. It's brilliantly small but has a number of issues that make it a dealbreaker for me

I refuse to acknowledge that the so called Zoom "F1" is part of the excellently awesome Zoom F Series. 

Doesn't. Exist. To. Me.

 

17 hours ago, bjohn said:

regret having sunk more money into this recorder as I only use it when I need the small size and the ability to mount on camera (which I never do unless I absolutely have to).

Perhaps the Shure VP83F LensHopper fits your purpose better for a "camera mounted recorder/mic combo"?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/966010-REG/shure_vp83f_condenser_shotgun_mic.html

  

15 hours ago, josdr said:

Lol I did not even know that there was a first gen one 😄.

The main "big" changes with Gen1 vs Gen2 of the MixPre recorders are:
1) internal timecode
2) Gen2 got a price drop
3) backs up to a USB thumbdrive (but this isn't true redundancy)
4) 32bit recording (which is overhyped in my opinion)

  

10 hours ago, independent said:

Try a fostex fr2le. Very low noise and dirt cheap secondhand. Built like a consumer radio from the 80s, but still kicking.

The Fostex FR2LE falls into the same category as for instance the Roland R44 I mentioned earlier.

In that, for its time (which was well over a decade ago!!) the Fostex FR2LE was an attractive kit for someone on a tight budget, because it could hold up to prosumer standards and thus for the low price of roughly around about £400inc it proved good value for money. 

But today in 2020, I don't think you can make a solid argument it is worthwhile swapping a DR60Dmk2 for a Fostex FR2LE instead, even though they sell for similar prices eBay. 
 

 

[josdr]

Ironfilm you are a wealth of expertise mingled in with good humour. Thanks for taking the time to chime in to my question. I do get the poor technique syndrome, I am a culprit in my early days 😃.

I mostly do external locations and as luck has it , there is always wind (too much of it) to take to battle. Despite all necessary precautions I reach the limit of my mic and recorder combo without really meaning to... This is just a hobby for me but from  the precious free time you put into it, you would like some return. I will keep my eyes open for a mix pre first gen and a used zoom f4.

 

PS. Do you think a zoom h5 would be an improvement over the tascam?

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, josdr said:

PS. Do you think a zoom h5 would be an improvement over the tascam?

From my perspective as a production sound mixer (note: my perspective isn't the same as everyone else! For instance in my eyes the F4 is clearly massively preferable to the MixPre3mk1, while for a solo OMB videographer they'd want the MixPre instead):

No.

 

2 hours ago, josdr said:

I mostly do external locations and as luck has it , there is always wind (too much of it) to take to battle. Despite all necessary precautions I reach the limit of my mic and recorder combo without really meaning to...

Wind should be almost next to meaningless for your recorder itself. 
So the issue is your mic, so get proper wind protection. 
Do you have a blimp?
What exactly is the setup you're recording usually?

[independent]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

The Fostex FR2LE falls into the same category as for instance the Roland R44 I mentioned earlier.

In that, for its time (which was well over a decade ago!!) the Fostex FR2LE was an attractive kit for someone on a tight budget, because it could hold up to prosumer standards and thus for the low price of roughly around about £400inc it proved good value for money. 

But today in 2020, I don't think you can make a solid argument it is worthwhile swapping a DR60Dmk2 for a Fostex FR2LE instead, even though they sell for similar prices eBay. 

 

EIN (Equivalent Input Noise): 

Fostex FR-2LE:  -129 dBu
Sound Devices MixPre3: -128 dBu
Tascam DR60/70D: -120 dBu

What's that old saying? Be wary of the internet self-styled sound man who's trying to sell you an easyrig.

[josdr]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

From my perspective as a production sound mixer (note: my perspective isn't the same as everyone else! For instance in my eyes the F4 is clearly massively preferable to the MixPre3mk1, while for a solo OMB videographer they'd want the MixPre instead):

No.

 

Wind should be almost next to meaningless for your recorder itself. 
So the issue is your mic, so get proper wind protection. 
Do you have a blimp?
What exactly is the setup you're recording usually?

Ι have the rode cat fur but the price of the rode blimp put me off so I do not have one of those. I always try to place the mike as close as possible to my subject etc. But even in a room environment I am getting noise that should not be there so I think that there is something wrong with the tascam. I never gelled with it really

[josdr]

3 hours ago, independent said:

 

What's that old saying? Be wary of the internet self-styled sound man who's trying to sell you an easyrig.

This is not good manners to say the least... If you can add something constructive to our conversation please do so  but not in this manner. Thank you. You are supposed to try and help me 😁😁

[independent]

It’s not anybody’s job to help you. Some posters are giving you opinions. Some are giving you facts. Help yourself.