Tascam 60D MKII replacement suggestions

[KnightsFan]

It's definitely worth differentiating opinion vs. fact. But I'll second the opinion in this case: be wary of old pro audio equipment, modern engineering has done marvels at a low price. I tried out an FR2 back when I owned a DR-60D mk2. The FR2 was noisier using the same mic in a sound proofed studio. Granted, @independent 's numbers are for the FR2LE (which is supposed to have better preamps) and the DR-60D (which has worse preamps than the Mk2). also keep in mind that if your problem is too much wind, then you are certainly not going to be hearing the noise floor of the recorder. The difference between self noise in any of those recorders is negligible in any normal outdoor recording.

And, to bring it back to the original suggestion, I've had a Zoom F4 for a few years now. It is superior audio quality to either the FR2 or the DR60 Mk2 by a significant margin. Even more importantly, it has better ergonomics than the FR2. The headphone preamp is much cleaner than Tascam's rather terrible one, and the construction is another league from the DR60.

[josdr]

10 hours ago, independent said:

It’s not anybody’s job to help you. Some posters are giving you opinions. Some are giving you facts. Help yourself. 

 Providing  uncorroborated numbers as "facts", whose source,  independent test settings etc are not provided along with them  is hardly a help.  Even if they stand  they can never be  the sole precursor of truth and in explaining an inanimate object or the interaction between its user and its functions. Something which matters to me and to most people . Your sole contribution in this conversation is a personal attack against another poster. You are not the sole purveyor of "facts" and surely your job cannot be one where bad manners are exhibited.

[josdr]

9 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I

And, to bring it back to the original suggestion, I've had a Zoom F4 for a few years now. It is superior audio quality to either the FR2 or the DR60 Mk2 by a significant margin. Even more importantly, it has better ergonomics than the FR2. The headphone preamp is much cleaner than Tascam's rather terrible one, and the construction is another league from the DR60.

Thank you for this KnightsFan. Your experience with the F4 and you kindly commenting on its use is something that I am interested in. I will strive for a used  zoom F4 I think since sourcing a mixpre-3 mk1 will be way more difficult. Thank you.

If I may a last question. Is the zoom F4 easy enough to use on the go or does it take too much fiddling through its UI (hunting around for a low limiter cut for example in submenus ).

 

P.S As for the fact vs opinion I am always weary of people just quoting numbers and proclaiming as undisputed facts... I see that all the time in my professional capacity and also see the resultant retractions and mental gymnastics in trying to defend a rapidly sinking ship.. Snarky comments are easy to make, making a well structured case for something less so.

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, independent said:

EIN (Equivalent Input Noise): 

Fostex FR-2LE:  -129 dBu
Sound Devices MixPre3: -128 dBu
Tascam DR60/70D: -120 dBu

What's that old saying? Be wary of the internet self-styled sound man who's trying to sell you an easyrig.

If you go back and read my original comment, you can see I wasn't hating upon the Fostex, in fact I even started out by giving it a complement that it was good value piece of kit for its time. 

But my point I was making was for the OP in particular, specifically that it wasn't worth them going through the effort to swap out their DR60Dmk2 for a FR2LE:
"today in 2020, I don't think you can make a solid argument it is worthwhile swapping a DR60Dmk2 for a Fostex FR2LE instead"

That doesn't even mean I don't think someone should buy a FR2LE themselves, if they're looking for a cheap sub $100 recorder. (just like I also think the R44 / DR680 / etc still have their place too, although they need to be very well priced to beat out a DR60Dmk2/DR70D, as otherwise it just makes more sense to go for the next step up to a F4/MixPre3)

Remember the question is not "should @josdr buy a Fostex FR2LE?" but the question is "should he swap his DR60Dmk2 for a FR2LE?" (and my answer was "I don't think it is worth the hassle", and even answer the same about others such as a DR680/R44/etc which I do respect even more, why sell and rebuy for a marginal gain if that? And especially not if a much better choice is not that much further way: MixPre3 / Zoom F4)

People tend to often get narrowly focused on just a single spec measurement, and lose track of the bigger picture. Such as "which has the best limiters" or "which has the quietest preamps", when a few dB here or here won't be a deal breaker for the context of what the OP needs to do. We see the same when discussing cameras too, with sometimes people being obsessed with only just the resolution, or the best AF, or which has the best lowlight etc...  to the exclusion of everything else, forgetting the bigger picture. 

This is like those discussion where people go on and on arguing for why the Sony a7S is so so so much better than a Panasonic GH5 purely on the basis of it being not as noisy, and being better at lowlight. Completely missing the point of why there are all the many reasons why a person would want a Panasonic GH5 in the first place. 

I didn't want to go into a detailed discussion of the FR2LE, as I didn't think it was worth the time, but here we go. Negatives vs a Tascam DR60Dmk2:

1) can't be camera mounted underneath the camera body, not purpose built for that
2) half the number of audio channels that can be recorded
3) can't be easily powered via any USB powerbank you happen to have at hand
4) uses CF cards (and with the Fostek's very old age, you're limited to smaller sized cards too)
5) you'll run a greater risk of failure by choosing the FR2LE due to its very old age vs a new (or at least "young") DR60Dmk2 (I do admit, perhaps my opinion of the FR2LE is slightly colored due to the only time I came across a FR2LE was a few years ago when it died on set!!! Luckily there was a Zoom H6 available someone had happened to bring along. Side note: this wasn't me! I wouldn't have brought a FR2LE to set, I was instead the AC on this short film, the last time I was ever a 1st AC! As I'm too focused on sound now)
6) no dual recording feature for safety with the FR2LE (quite a major negative in my eyes, as this is a very handy feature on the DR60Dmk2 for any newbie recordist)

Can you see why for the OP's specific situation I don't think the FR2LE is worth the hassle to change over from a DR60Dmk2? From where I'm sitting it looks like one step forward, two steps back, if I'm being generous. Perhaps from another vantage point you could very generously say it is instead two steps forward, one step back??? Still, not exactly a highly compelling argument to go through the hassle of swapping out from his existing DR60Dmk2???
 

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, josdr said:

Ι have the rode cat fur but the price of the rode blimp put me off so I do not have one of those. I always try to place the mike as close as possible to my subject etc. But even in a room environment I am getting noise that should not be there so I think that there is something wrong with the tascam. I never gelled with it really

Watch a few video tutorials to learn more. Get the mic in closer, how far away are you? Is the mic on axis? Are there other ambient noises in the room? etc etc
(if you can, see if you can get a friend with another DR60Dmk2, or even say an H5/H6, to see if yours sounds similar of it is broken or perhaps you just got a setting wrong)

Have you got the Rode WS6? That really is the bare minimum for wind protection, and if the winds are a bit heavier you really do have to get a blimp if you're working a lot outdoors. 

 

11 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

It's definitely worth differentiating opinion vs. fact. But I'll second the opinion in this case: be wary of old pro audio equipment, modern engineering has done marvels at a low price. I tried out an FR2 back when I owned a DR-60D mk2. The FR2 was noisier using the same mic in a sound proofed studio. Granted, @independent 's numbers are for the FR2LE (which is supposed to have better preamps) and the DR-60D (which has worse preamps than the Mk2). also keep in mind that if your problem is too much wind, then you are certainly not going to be hearing the noise floor of the recorder. The difference between self noise in any of those recorders is negligible in any normal outdoor recording.

And, to bring it back to the original suggestion, I've had a Zoom F4 for a few years now. It is superior audio quality to either the FR2 or the DR60 Mk2 by a significant margin. Even more importantly, it has better ergonomics than the FR2. The headphone preamp is much cleaner than Tascam's rather terrible one, and the construction is another league from the DR60.

Cheers for adding your 2c, seems you've got overall the same general opinion as myself. (that modern tech has leaped forward far enough it is debatable if it is worth the hassle to swap to a much older but "better" recorder, as there are other factors to consider too. And also that the Zoom F4, and the F/MixPre series in general, is a really big leap forward for what we can get for low cost)

  

1 hour ago, josdr said:

Thank you for this KnightsFan. Your experience with the F4 and you kindly commenting on its use is something that I am interested in. I will strive for a used  zoom F4 I think since sourcing a mixpre-3 mk1 will be way more difficult. Thank you.

If I may a last question. Is the zoom F4 easy enough to use on the go or does it take too much fiddling through its UI (hunting around for a low limiter cut for example in submenus ).

I think it is easy enough to find your way around the menus, but also note that the low cut isn't something you should necessarily need to be fiddling around changing on a regular frequent basis.

[josdr]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Watch a few video tutorials to learn more. Get the mic in closer, how far away are you? Is the mic on axis? Are there other ambient noises in the room? etc etc
(if you can, see if you can get a friend with another DR60Dmk2, or even say an H5/H6, to see if yours sounds similar of it is broken or perhaps you just got a setting wrong)

Have you got the Rode WS6? That really is the bare minimum for wind protection, and if the winds are a bit heavier you really do have to get a blimp if you're working a lot outdoors. 

 

 

Yes, I have the WS6. I try to follow guidelines as per mic placement but 90 % of my shooting is outdoors so wind is always a hassle. Thank you very much for your advice , I now understand that the Zoom F4 and the mixpre are a giant leap ahead for my amateur needs and should serve me well for the years to come. I will put the blimp in the want-one list.

Thanks to everybody that answered.

[KnightsFan]

6 hours ago, josdr said:

Thank you for this KnightsFan. Your experience with the F4 and you kindly commenting on its use is something that I am interested in. I will strive for a used  zoom F4 I think since sourcing a mixpre-3 mk1 will be way more difficult. Thank you.

If I may a last question. Is the zoom F4 easy enough to use on the go or does it take too much fiddling through its UI (hunting around for a low limiter cut for example in submenus ).

 

P.S As for the fact vs opinion I am always weary of people just quoting numbers and proclaiming as undisputed facts... I see that all the time in my professional capacity and also see the resultant retractions and mental gymnastics in trying to defend a rapidly sinking ship.. Snarky comments are easy to make, making a well structured case for something less so.

I find the F4 relatively easy to use on the go. I think that audio equipment in general has UI/UX issues since the general convention is to use a little knob to twiddle your way through expansive menus. You kinda have to memorize where things are, but it's not worse than other recorders. (I think the DSLR convention of a wheel built on top of 4 directional buttons is simply easier to use).

But the main UI of being able to toggle channels on/off with 1 click, adjusting gain directly on a knob, and soloing a channel with 1 click are nice. I like having all the controls on the front panel so that it's easy to see when hanging from a neck strap. The one thing I miss from the DR60 Mk2 is that little Mic/Line/Phantom switch. You have to enter the menu on the F4 to get to that. But you can press a button on the F4 to immediately access a channel's options, so day-to-day I don't have to hunt around. It's things like switching from 48kHz to 96, or changing the routing matrix, that are a pain because I only do them once every few months and forget where the options are.

The biggest issue F4 has for me is that battery life is quite bad using 8 AA batteries. I affixed a large 12V battery on top, but it's an ugly, heavy solution. However, most recorders have pretty bad battery life in my experience, especially older ones. The F6 is very attractive to me for the simple reason of having a built in NPF battery sled and (supposedly) really good battery life, along with 32 bit recording of course.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, josdr said:

Yes, I have the WS6. I try to follow guidelines as per mic placement but 90 % of my shooting is outdoors so wind is always a hassle. Thank you very much for your advice , I now understand that the Zoom F4 and the mixpre are a giant leap ahead for my amateur needs and should serve me well for the years to come. I will put the blimp in the want-one list.

From the sounds of it, getting a blimp (be it a Rode brand or whatever) should be a much higher priority for you than an F4/F6/MixPre3/whatever

What exactly are you recording and how? If it is say sit down interviews outdoors, then getting a C Stand and boombuddy so you can position your shotgun right on the frame edge should be a high priority too. (again, a higher priority than replacing your Tascam DR60Dmk2 with anything else)

[josdr]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

From the sounds of it, getting a blimp (be it a Rode brand or whatever) should be a much higher priority for you than an F4/F6/MixPre3/whatever

What exactly are you recording and how? If it is say sit down interviews outdoors, then getting a C Stand and boombuddy so you can position your shotgun right on the frame edge should be a high priority too. (again, a higher priority than replacing your Tascam DR60Dmk2 with anything else)

I am quite sure that my tascam has hardware related noise that exhibits itself even in very quiet environment so it is getting the chop one way or another. I got it second-hand and it is not behaving as it should.Even if this was not the case I understand that mic placement is paramount of getting better sound and thus welcome your advice. I did not know about the boom buddy for example but we make do with a wooden broom handle etc 😄. The amount of sound gear you need in cinematography if you record dialogue is unbelievable. I have learned to appreciate how difficult it is to record clean sound but I do have to draw a line due to cost. It is a hobby after all for me.

The cost of the rode blimp is ridiculous but in the long run I will have to get one . You do pay through the nose for these things. I have a c-Stand, the magic wooden broom  handle and lots of duct tape 🤣

[josdr]

17 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

The biggest issue F4 has for me is that battery life is quite bad using 8 AA batteries. I affixed a large 12V battery on top, but it's an ugly, heavy solution. However, most recorders have pretty bad battery life in my experience, especially older ones. The F6 is very attractive to me for the simple reason of having a built in NPF battery sled and (supposedly) really good battery life, along with 32 bit recording of course.

Thank you for your very helpful advice . I got caught up yesterday on reading on this 32-bit float magic and the F6- mixpre-3 ii implementation of it.. It was fun reading... The funny thing is that such kind of features are probably more useful for hobbyists rather than seasoned sound engineers that know how to record keeping post-processing in mind

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, josdr said:

I did not know about the boom buddy for example but we make do with a wooden broom handle etc 😄

Yikes, I'd recommend you at least get this instead:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32814668466.html 

4 hours ago, josdr said:

The amount of sound gear you need in cinematography if you record dialogue is unbelievable.

Yes, it isn't entirely unusual for me to show up to an indie shoot with more gear than the camera dept has!
 

4 hours ago, josdr said:

The cost of the rode blimp is ridiculous but in the long run I will have to get one . You do pay through the nose for these things.

The Rode Blimp is pretty cheap compared to the others on the market, if it makes you feel better, check out the pricing of these:
https://www.gothamsound.com/product/cyclone-windshield-kit-w-windjammer-large

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/cinela-pia-1/

I should really get one of them myself in the near future, but for now I'm surviving with a Rode Blimp v2 and an older Rycote Supershield. 

You should check out the Marantz Blimp:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1302687-REG/marantz_professional_zp_1_blimp_style_microphone_windscreen.html

I personally have no experience with it, but it is priced ridiculously cheap, and it seems to perhaps be a clone of the Rode Blimp v1? (which one of the negatives of it is that the shock mounts in it are not as good as the Lyres in the Rode Blimp v2, but for your purposes on a C Stand, this shouldn't be a deal breaker)
 

4 hours ago, josdr said:

I have a c-Stand, the magic wooden broom  handle and lots of duct tape 🤣

In the long run, perhaps a boom buddy and shock mount (which are each very cheap) will save you money vs how much duct tape you must surely be using up??

[Ty Harper]

@IronFilm, slightly off topic, although mentioned in this thread... I recall you saying somewhere that the 32-bit float option was a bit overrated. I was toying with the idea of upgrading from my Zoom F4 to a mixpre-6 for the slightly better analog limiters, but then I was thinking that a mixpre-6 II might be the final destination purchase for a primarily audio doc producer like myself whose needs are already well covered by a 4 xlr in recorder, but can see the value of 32-bit float in situations when you're capturing a really loud concert or a passionate discussion with multiple talking heads.

Point is, if you were 90% satisfied with the F4 but willing to make one final upgrade on your primary audio recorder (though not a rush to upgrade either) --- would you upgrade to a used mixpre-6 or hold out for the mixpre-6 II?

And thanks for all the audio advice you offer us all on these forums!

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

can see the value of 32-bit float

There are two main perspectives here:

Production Sound Mixer:
32bit is pointless, and non-standard.
Heck, there isn't even a single professional field recorder in existence that does 32bit!! Not one.
Needless it say it is not desperately needed by a PSM.

One man band videographer who does everything himself, including even audio post:
Their attentions are being pulled a million different ways during a shoot, as they're trying to do too much, and thus mistakes might be made. And they don't need to worry about surprises in the post workflow, as they're handling this all themselves. 

 

7 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

I was toying with the idea of upgrading from my Zoom F4 to a mixpre-6 for the slightly better analog limiters

Have you done the latest firmware update for the F4? For its hybrid digital limiters.
(btw, note that almost everything on set is wireless.... so often by the time you hit the recorder, the limiters there are too late as the damage is already done)

In my opinion (note: this is from the perspective of a PSM):
It is a big step back to go from an F4 to a MixPre6mk1. 
Just some of the negatives:
No dual media recording
No safety track recording. 
Two less channels than a F4 if using TC
Inferior powering options
Ergonomics/design is a step back

An alternative opinion, if you're a OMB videographer:
The MixPre3/6 is a very compact form factor for mounting under a mirrorless camera, and worth the so called "upgrade" just for that alone. 

 

[Ty Harper]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Have you done the latest firmware update for the F4? For its hybrid digital limiters.

Yes I have, and thanks for the insight!

[josdr]

On 6/1/2020 at 12:57 AM, IronFilm said:

There are two main perspectives here:

Production Sound Mixer:
32bit is pointless, and non-standard.
Heck, there isn't even a single professional field recorder in existence that does 32bit!! Not one.
Needless it say it is not desperately needed by a PSM.

One man band videographer who does everything himself, including even audio post:
Their attentions are being pulled a million different ways during a shoot, as they're trying to do too much, and thus mistakes might be made. And they don't need to worry about surprises in the post workflow, as they're handling this all themselves. 

An alternative opinion, if you're a OMB videographer:

The MixPre3/6 is a very compact form factor for mounting under a mirrorless camera, and worth the so called "upgrade" just for that alone. 

 

Your last two paragraphs are very true. Usually you are alone with one or some actors and/or have a technically ignorant helper/s who you have delegated to the sound department after setting everything up and entrusting him to hit the record button.

Adjusting gain on the fly, moving the microphone to a better position outside the evolving shot or caring about wind noise picking up are usually (and rightfully) beyond his understanding. It is a paradox but the 32 bit magic is more needed for OMB's and their illustrious helpers rather than seasoned pros that know what to do.

Your recommendation about the blimp is good, (lol the pricing for the other ones) so I will get one as soon as I can. Are they really that much better in squashing wind noise than the cat-fur? (do you also use the cat fur inside the blimp for better results?).

 

Lots of questions but I think we have touched subjects that should interest a lot of people in the long run

PS. I got a shock mount and a mic crane, yayyyy!

 

[IronFilm]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, josdr said:

Your last two paragraphs are very true. Usually you are alone with one or some actors and/or have a technically ignorant helper/s who you have delegated to the sound department after setting everything up and entrusting him to hit the record button.

Adjusting gain on the fly, moving the microphone to a better position outside the evolving shot or caring about wind noise picking up are usually (and rightfully) beyond his understanding. It is a paradox but the 32 bit magic is more needed for OMB's and their illustrious helpers rather than seasoned pros that know what to do.

Yes, I think you got one of my main core points ("that unless you are incompetent and royally fvxk up the recording then usually 24bit is just fine". However, on low budget productions... incompetence runs rife, or just simply competent people are stretched to snapping point due to lack of budget/time/resources).

But you perhaps missed my other point perhaps which is actually even more important: as a production sound mixer we're but one small cog in a very large machine, and we don't have control over the entire workflow. We mess with that at our own peril!

Yet as a OMB videographer/preditor you can more easily take ownership of the project from start to finish, and do whatever you see fit with the process. (such as choosing to use 32bits)

 

On 6/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, josdr said:

Your recommendation about the blimp is good, (lol the pricing for the other ones) so I will get one as soon as I can.

Again, in the relative grand scheme of things... the pricing isn't that crazy! Not compared to the total cost of a mixer's sound package. And one of these days I should get myself a Cinela and/or Cyclone, perhaps once these ill winds of COVID-19 have blown over and "normality" has resumed. 
 

On 6/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, josdr said:

Are they really that much better in squashing wind noise than the cat-fur?

You mean vs something like this:

 

Yes, as a blimp provides a larger amount of still air around the mic. 

However, if I can safely get away with less wind protection I will. 

For instance that is all I used on the latest shoot I was on, out in the bush:

But I did have a blimp (and a spare) ready to go in the ute, if needed. 
 

On 6/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, josdr said:

(do you also use the cat fur inside the blimp for better results?).

No, but I imagine if the weather gets truly extreme enough I might be willing to try "anything"!

On this advert the wind was so extreme my boom was almost being ripped out my hands by the wind (the gimbal op was constantly having to stop and reset due to the wind! ha), so I had a double layer of fur around the outside of my blimp:
 

 

[josdr]

A belated thanks for all your help! Sound is a difficult theme to master!