1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

[padam]

26 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Did the A6500 improve over the A6300? The A6300 was unbearably bad in 4k.

It's the same, except the IBIS filters it a little.

This has them in order, the EOS RP is the 'leader' in terms of sensor speed, but because it is not sampling more pixels, it still cannot beat the Sony to be a rolling shutter champion (comes close though)

Can the R5 beat the A6300 and its relatives?
The 8K vs 6K readout is certainly promising.
But thanks to many years of evolution, I fear that it may not beat it and we will struggle to see as much rolling shutter again.

 

[Andrew Reid]

5 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@Andrew Reid I assume you will love the quality of the image coming from this camera. Would love you to hear your impressions regarding the "cinematic" image, also in comparision to the Sigma FP or Lumix S1. cheers

Yes, good plan!

6 hours ago, padam said:

Before we conclude how bad the 1DX III is, at the moment no other FF camera offers 5.5k 60p to start with. None.
And the R5 will not sample 5.5k at 60p, so AF will be enabled in all 8K or 4K recording modes as stated.
It is likely to be more like a Panasonic S1R or Leica SL2, e.g. not the most detailed, but very good rolling shutter in 60p (30p is still in question).
There will be a mountain of recording options to reduce the file sizes, and external 4K Prores recording will be supported as well.

No conclusions until the fat lady sings. But it ain't looking great, is it? You spend in my case £5800 and find out the rolling shutter in 24p is worse than Sony's low-end mirrorless camera? These things should not happen. Not at that price. Nope.

True, no other camera offers 5.5K 60p RAW. However the image quality must be evaluated to see if the massive file sizes make it worth shooting. Some cameras take a short-cut with the sensor output in RAW. Optimally, RAW is a 1:1 readout - the RAW pixel data, written directly to card. If the Nikon Z6 for example had an optimal ProRes RAW solution with the Ninja V it would be 6K. The sensor is 6K. Ask yourself how they get to 4K RAW. Look closely at the pixel quality vs 10bit 422 V-LOG on the S1H. It ain't a pretty picture.

It is very special to have a cinematic, film like image, but then there is the question of getting the shot in the real world. What hinders you, etc. Superb image quality is nothing if you miss a shot, or the rolling shutter messes up the shot.

Taking away AF in the high resolution full frame 60P modes really annoys me, but I am not going to unfairly throw the camera under the bus for it... The AF is still in a different league to the S1H, which is this camera's closest competitor for video quality.

[padam]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes, good plan!

No conclusions until the fat lady sings. But it ain't looking great, is it? You spend in my case £5800 and find out the rolling shutter in 24p is worse than Sony's low-end mirrorless camera? These things should not happen. Not at that price. Nope.

True, no other camera offers 5.5K 60p RAW. However the image quality must be evaluated to see if the massive file sizes make it worth shooting. Some cameras take a short-cut with the sensor output in RAW. Optimally, RAW is a 1:1 readout - the RAW pixel data, written directly to card. If the Nikon Z6 for example had an optimal ProRes RAW solution with the Ninja V it would be 6K. The sensor is 6K. Ask yourself how they get to 4K RAW. Look closely at the pixel quality vs 10bit 422 V-LOG on the S1H. It ain't a pretty picture.

It is very special to have a cinematic, film like image, but then there is the question of getting the shot in the real world. What hinders you, etc. Superb image quality is nothing if you miss a shot, or the rolling shutter messes up the shot.

Taking away AF in the high resolution full frame 60P modes really annoys me, but I am not going to unfairly throw the camera under the bus for it... The AF is still in a different league to the S1H, which is this camera's closest competitor for video quality.

Even before release on the specs sheet it was 100% clear that the 5.5K raw can only be a full sensor readout as well, so it was never in question like the Nikon Z6 or the Sigma fp.
Furthermore, most of what one needs to know about the 1DX III image has been put out there on the internet for months, so it's not like one is forced to spend that much money to find that out.
Unless the intention is to dissect every new stills camera via an article, and it is not so difficult, because it is crystal clear that there won't ever be a perfect one, each one will have some sort of issue or compromised feature.
Despite the amazing feature set it is also quite clear that compared to their Cinema cameras, the stills cameras with different processors won't have the same rolling shutter and editor-friendly codecs and file sizes in less compressed formats. (And with the C300 III we can add dynamic range to that list as well) that's because it's a Canon camera, other brands can be associated with other quirks/issues.
For using them as a B-cam (and taking some stills), they look mighty good.
The main line is that can be used for video with amazing results, and people made amazing stuff with cameras that have even worse rolling shutter, but if that's a concern there are other options. Could they have enabled an AF-disabled FF mode to reduce the 4k24p rolling shutter? That remains a mystery but the AF seems to be a headline feature anyway.

I do wonder though, if people love to complain about the 1DX III being inadequate, what's the EOS R6 going to get with an cut-price sensor and processor, probably worse rolling shutter, dynamic range and much more limited video features?
Will people going to forgive considering it will be the cheapest camera they make with dual card slots and 4k60p with a great IBIS and AF systems, which are well integrated with their lens lineup and it's going to be easy to get a decent image without much care (e.g. vloggers)?
(Sorry if this review was posted already)

 

[Andrew Reid]

One of the best features of the 1D X Mark III for me on the first day I've had it, has been the full frame 4K/60p 10bit Canon LOG 4:2:2 with DIS and a Z-finder on the back screen for my "EVF".

Yes, you lose the big AF selling point, so it's not perfect for shooting everything, but I find it very nice to use for handheld cinema in this mode.

Slow-mo when you want it, adds to stability handheld. Loupe adds to stability, extra point of contact with the body. Then DIS rounds off any rough edges - gets rid of the micro jitter. It works well.

In fact it works so well, I forgot it didn't have IBIS for a moment.

There is a small 10% crop from full frame with DIS but no loss in image quality. Enhanced DIS has a loss of image quality and is more useful as an Ex-Tele mode than an extra stabiliser mode. Good if you need the extra reach.

So the AF is there when you need it for 24p.

And the DIS is there if you need it.

And the slow-mo.

If not all at once, then at least close to it.

I am warming to it.

[cameraeye]

From looking at the cameras (at a distance online- I have none of them), it seems like Canon have at least done a good job separating the R5, 1DXIII and your pick of one of their cinema cameras. You have good A, B and C cameras. Cinema camera for big shoots- when full cinema usability and quality are needed, the 1DXIII for quality but slightly more agility, and the R5 for the lightest use like smaller gimbals and more accessible screen etc.

I'm glad there is a spiritual successor to the 1DC and that in the future I won't have to wait for Magic Lantern because when you need it, RAW is absolutely incredible, especially for VFX work.

[kye]

On 6/2/2020 at 7:47 AM, FranciscoB said:

Yes, it isn't for me. When did I suggest otherwise? 

People overthink and overpraise raw format for video. 

For photography? Great. For video I think is overkill for the majority of us. Log and 10 bit 422 is a great compromise for quality and space. 

But anyway, to each his own. As I said before, no thank you. 

You didn't, I was just having a little fun while also making a point.

I think that the RAW vs compressed comparison doesn't align with still images at all because of the way that compressed stills handle DR.  Compressed stills clip the DR of the camera, which is why many people shoot RAW.  Personally I think that's blindingly stupid when it's just as easy to make a JPG from the whole DR of the RAW image, like any free image editor can do but somehow cameras costing thousands of dollars can't do.  If shooting log h264/h265 cut off a couple of stops of DR then we'd all be lusting over RAW and having t-shirts printed about it as well, but thankfully, we're not.

[Andrew Reid]

My god the playback performance of 5.5K Canon RAW in Resolve is shoddy. Can barely get above 5fps.

[cameraeye]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

My god the playback performance of 5.5K Canon RAW in Resolve is shoddy. Can barely get above 5fps.

What computer?

[Andrew Reid]

Intel Core i9 9900K

32GB 3000mhz DDR4

Vega 64 8GB

Mac OS 10.14

**

Seems to run better in OpenCL mode compared to Metal. Well, it did for about 5 seconds and now it's back to being very choppy.

Playback resolution full / half / quarter doesn't make a difference.

Project drive is an Nvme SSD with 3500MB/s read speed.

[cameraeye]

Ouch, Resolve leans heavily on graphics as well so can't blame it like Premiere.

[Andrew Reid]

I have edited 4K DNG RAW on much lesser systems without a hitch.

Back to the store for the 1DX3? Looks like it.

[gt3rs]

33 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Intel Core i9 9900K

32GB 3000mhz DDR4

Vega 64 8GB

Mac OS 10.14

**

Seems to run better in OpenCL mode compared to Metal. Well, it did for about 5 seconds and now it's back to being very choppy.

Playback resolution full / half / quarter doesn't make a difference.

Project drive is an Nvme SSD with 3500MB/s read speed.

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

My god the playback performance of 5.5K Canon RAW in Resolve is shoddy. Can barely get above 5fps.

Cannot be that slow as I get 11-14 fps on a 3 years old gaming notebook that the CPU is like 1/4 of yours (16 GB RAM,  i7-7700HQ, 1070 M ). In the other 1Dx III thread people with similar spec (on windows) could do real time no problem.

You can see it goes from 11-14 fps on a 4k DCI timeline on a 4k res screen. Source is 5.5 RAW 24fps....  full res, no optimize media and no 1/2 or 1/4 res directly from the CFexpress (you can try this to see if your SSD has an issue maybe.....)

 

@Trankilstef  machine I9 9900K, 32 gb RAM and RTX 2080 Ti can play back real time no problem.....

[currensheldon]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I have edited 4K DNG RAW on much lesser systems without a hitch.

Back to the store for the 1DX3? Looks like it.

Unfortunately that was my problem with the C200 as well. Raw files were glorious, but the playback was horrible. And yea, you can do proxies, but when you have a souped up, brand new iMac, that's annoying. Compared to running 6k-8k redcode, it was awful. Whereas redcode played back like butter.

[Andrew Reid]

A question for Resolve users... Is it still possible to display the fps in the viewer? I used to have this in the Canon Magic Lantern RAW days but it's vanished and can't find the option.

I have an RTX 2080 Ti in my PC and will see what performance is like on that. Nvidia cards no longer work with the latest Mac OS verisions - so that's why there's a Vega 64 in my Hackintosh. It has excellent compute performance even though it's not as powerful for games as an RTX 2080.

Will ask Blackmagic support what the problem might be.

The crushed blacks in 10bit H.265 is also an issue with my Fuji footage in Resolve, and it badly needs a solution... Will see if this happens in Windows or if it is an Apple thing.

By the way I think the reason the 1DX3 doesn't allow autofocus in 4K/60p is the battery can't handle it... Peak power requirements. Driving that sensor in turbo mode, and image processor at 100% utilisation, along with autofocus just doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do on a battery like the 1DX3 has.

[docmoore]

Can you transcode with Canon utility to something more Resolve friendly?

Resolve in the Edit page shows clip length, magnification size and FPS at the top right of the window display of the timeline ....

The Radeon VII (non pro) would give you improved preformance over the Vega 56 ... and it is supported in Mojave/Catalina.

[TheBoogieKnight]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The crushed blacks in 10bit H.265 is also an issue with my Fuji footage in Resolve, and it badly needs a solution... Will see if this happens in Windows or if it is an Apple thing.

Are you running the latest version of OsX on your Hack? There were a lot of posts about the crushed black issue a while ago (several months) but it was apparently fixed by Apple in an OsX update.

[docmoore]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

The crushed blacks in 10bit H.265 is also an issue with my Fuji footage in Resolve, and it badly needs a solution... Will see if this happens in Windows or if it is an Apple thing.

 

These threads may be helpful:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=114047

 

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=101253

 

 

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

A question for Resolve users... Is it still possible to display the fps in the viewer? I used to have this in the Canon Magic Lantern RAW days but it's vanished and can't find the option.

I have an RTX 2080 Ti in my PC and will see what performance is like on that. Nvidia cards no longer work with the latest Mac OS verisions - so that's why there's a Vega 64 in my Hackintosh. It has excellent compute performance even though it's not as powerful for games as an RTX 2080.

Will ask Blackmagic support what the problem might be.

The crushed blacks in 10bit H.265 is also an issue with my Fuji footage in Resolve, and it badly needs a solution... Will see if this happens in Windows or if it is an Apple thing.

By the way I think the reason the 1DX3 doesn't allow autofocus in 4K/60p is the battery can't handle it... Peak power requirements. Driving that sensor in turbo mode, and image processor at 100% utilization, along with autofocus just doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do on a battery like the 1DX3 has.

fps is displayed on the top left of the viewer window see my above post near the 57% there is a red dot a 11 that is the current playback speed. normally it should be green with 24 or whatever.

 

Here you can see the speed that a 9900K would get you with cinema light... https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/DaVinci-Resolve-Studio-CPU-Roundup-AMD-Ryzen-3rd-Gen-AMD-Threadripper-2-Intel-9th-Gen-Intel-X-series-1538/

 

As you can see it should do with basic grade > 45 fps. Something is wrong on your machine. Did you check the CPU load?  

On a dell XPS 15'' i7 9880H I can get around 17-20 fps with a crappy GTX 1050.... for Canon RAW CPU is the key factor 

[gt3rs]

41 minutes ago, docmoore said:

Can you transcode with Canon utility to something more Resolve friendly?

 

You can just have Resolve generate optimize media..... you pick the in and out on a rough manner, drop it in the media bin and then right click all the clips and hit generate optimized media (the setting of the format are in the timeline setting). Then in edit and color tab you can just turn on and off optimize media.... very easy. This is the way I edit on my 3 years old notebook.

[Snowbro]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

A question for Resolve users... Is it still possible to display the fps in the viewer? I used to have this in the Canon Magic Lantern RAW days but it's vanished and can't find the option.

I have an RTX 2080 Ti in my PC and will see what performance is like on that. Nvidia cards no longer work with the latest Mac OS verisions - so that's why there's a Vega 64 in my Hackintosh. It has excellent compute performance even though it's not as powerful for games as an RTX 2080.

Will ask Blackmagic support what the problem might be.

The crushed blacks in 10bit H.265 is also an issue with my Fuji footage in Resolve, and it badly needs a solution... Will see if this happens in Windows or if it is an Apple thing.

By the way I think the reason the 1DX3 doesn't allow autofocus in 4K/60p is the battery can't handle it... Peak power requirements. Driving that sensor in turbo mode, and image processor at 100% utilisation, along with autofocus just doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do on a battery like the 1DX3 has.

I have had some issues in Resolve with RAW files, I tried all the obvious things like making sure CUDA is enabled and force enabling GPU for decoding etc. None of that really did too much, then I did the clunky smart rendering stuff and manually optimizing the clips, which worked, but it redundantly made me lose tons of SSD space to do it. 

The solution I found: I just turned off the smart or selected rendering, did not optimize clips. Made a new project, threw clips into its native res timeline and turned on fusion memory cache. Then I would just hit play on the timeline, it would still be lower fps, but after it went through it once, it plays back smoothly every time, even with heavy color grading etc. 

I found that this is the only way I can get my computer to actually start utilizing more of my CPU/GPU power in Resolve for some reason. I don't know why this works, but it does for me, give it a go.