1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

[Andrew Reid]

Slashcam I would trust. Others not so much. DPReview don't even say how they arrived at the 28ms for GFX 100 or whether it was a scientifically measured test or just real-world impressions.

So it is not easy to compare rolling shutter readings from different source as they all use different methods.

In real-world tests people even all use different focal lengths and panning speeds.

The S1H in full frame 4K/24p is definitely much less than 1D X III in same mode.

The frustrating thing about the 1DX3 for me for the £6k, is that it clearly is capable of 16ms rolling shutter in 60p but cripples 24p with doubly worse rolling shutter.

Why doesn't it use 16ms all the time?

[mrtreve]

Haha I called out the rolling shutter on Feb 1st. Personally it's a dealbreaker for me. It'd work fine as a static B-cam, but if you're not doing serious photo work I think it's hard to justify.

 

 

[Video Hummus]

12 hours ago, gt3rs said:

So if you don't need RAW or 5.5k but you want FF, AF and 10 bit, good for you as there are many more alternatives (exactly 3 🙂 ):

- FX9 11'000 USD, 21 ms RS

- C500 II 16'000 USD, 16 ms RS

- C700FF 33'000 USD

Suddenly 6500 USD camera is almost a bargain ..... but yeah RS in FF with AF is bad, no ND, no XLR, etc....

No I don’t need FF. You know what is a bargain? Fuji XT-4. Somehow Fuji gives us 1.5 crop 4K 10-bit 4:2:0 at 400Mbps ALL-I H.265 with IBIS and good RS for less than $2K and in a body much smaller than the 1DX3.

The 1DX you get 4K 24p in 1.33x crop mode (to get AF and acceptable RS) plus if you add digital IS you are now at about the same crop for $6.5K. There goes all the advantages of the FF sensor for video.

I don’t see the appeal, myself. If I shot action sports with a telephoto I would feel much different about it. I do think it’s a step in the right direction so I am excited for the R5/R6. 

[Andrew Reid]

Yeah it's not worth $6.5K unless you are a pro photographer using it day in day out for stills.

I have no doubt it's the best stills DSLR ever made. No doubt about that.

But video? Hmm. So many others that offer more in total.

X-T4 is a total bargain indeed. If the GH5 was a bargain then this camera is even more.

Add some Meike cine lenses or Sigma glass to the mix and you are practically as close to Arri / RED filmic quality as you're going to get for the money.

Blackmagic Pocket 4K is quite noisy and feature-limited by comparison. And let's not even begin to compare build quality.

Panasonic S1 with V-LOG update is the cheapest full frame 10bit 4K camera. The image that offers for £1500 is EXCEPTIONAL and there is nothing the 1DX Mark III in 4K 24p 10bit Canon LOG does that is significantly different, except the rolling shutter is a lot worse. So why pay so much extra? Under $2k or over $6K + astronomical CFexpress costs?

[gt3rs]

Why somebody would buy a 6.5k camera if he is not interested in FF, AF and more important photos.... buy a C200 that is a better fit for video other than maybe gimbal work.

The strange thing that GFX 100 at 10k usd has only up to 30fps with also not great rolling shutter is a great video camera and 1Dx III that has 60fps, RAW, crop and ff mode, good RS in crop and 60fps is bad and too expensive. Make no sense to me.
GFX 100 is the same as the 1Dx III that is first a great photo camera that can also take great video. But for both if you have zero interest in the photo part both make no sense for the price even if they would have a RS of 7 ms......

R5 and R6 are probably priced better for most of the user here but they will also have compromises as every camera on the market. I'm sure there will be 1 thing missing or bad and then the irrational will start again.

I remember the same when 1Dx II was launched......  truth is that if you need great video AF and 60fps (as I really do)  almost 4 years later there are not many choices.....

[Andrew Reid]

Don't forget GFX 100 is completely different class of camera.

The sensor is a completely different size. Much larger. The look is different. Makes full frame look like a toy.

As for rolling shutter, I have used both in real world. I am not lying when I say GFX 100 rolling shutter isn't as noticeable as the 1D X III. And I have been shooting F1 cars at 200mph with it. I have the footage to prove it, some of it (at 105mm no less with a sweeping pan) is in the YouTube video.

Yes the 1D X III has 4K 60p with AF in crop mode but so does X-T4 and it's 1/4th of the price. Yes it has 5.5K RAW... but as already explained in the review it is practically unusable (file sizes).

So for great video AF and 60p, choose the X-T4.

[Django]

Personally, my interest for 1DX3 completely died down after R5 was rumoured  shortly after.

As for GFX100 vs 1DX3 vs XT4.. well 3 different sensor size cameras at 3 completely different budgets.

Again personally, above the $6K line I'd rather be looking at dedicated cine cams.. especially if RS, NDs, XLR etc are of importance to you.

XT4 definitely seems like best bang for buck at the moment, kinda like the new GH5.

But if you're into FF (even if just for stills) you still may wanna invest in another hybrid system.

[gt3rs]

6 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

As for rolling shutter, I have used both in real world. I am not lying when I say GFX 100 rolling shutter isn't as noticeable as the 1D X III. And I have been shooting F1 cars at 200mph with it. I have the footage to prove it, some of it (at 105mm no less with a sweeping pan) is in the YouTube video.

 

On  tracking/panning fast object at 1/50 24fps you will not see rolling shutter because the motion blur will hide the RS issue. I track mtb at  (200-400 +1.4) 560mm and I have zero problem with RS. Is really unstable platform or back and forth movements that shows up. I have more problem on a horse show jumping parkour as you move back and forth and  the obstacles as they are vertical they tend to be bended....

Btw I did cover the 24h of Nürburgring for teams multiple years so I'm familiar with motorsport.

  

[Rinad Amir]

6 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

On  tracking/panning fast object at 1/50 24fps you will not see rolling shutter because the motion blur will hide the RS issue. I track mtb at  (200-400 +1.4) 560mm and I have zero problem with RS. Is really unstable platform or back and forth movements that shows up. I have more problem on a horse show jumping parkour as you move back and forth and  the obstacles as they are vertical they tend to be bended....

Btw I did cover the 24h of Nürburgring for teams multiple years so I'm familiar with motorsport.

  

What a Frame man 👏🏼

[gt3rs]

I don't have a better example with me right now but this was a test 400mm 1/50 24fps, the water fountain on the back would be a bit bended but with the blur as you are panning in the same direction you barely notice it. I have a better example in the forest but not we me at the moment.

[Mokara]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:44 AM, Andrew Reid said:

Slashcam I would trust. Others not so much. DPReview don't even say how they arrived at the 28ms for GFX 100 or whether it was a scientifically measured test or just real-world impressions.

So it is not easy to compare rolling shutter readings from different source as they all use different methods.

In real-world tests people even all use different focal lengths and panning speeds.

The S1H in full frame 4K/24p is definitely much less than 1D X III in same mode.

The frustrating thing about the 1DX3 for me for the £6k, is that it clearly is capable of 16ms rolling shutter in 60p but cripples 24p with doubly worse rolling shutter.

Why doesn't it use 16ms all the time?

Because it has to focus as well, and it apparently can't do both at the same time.

9 hours ago, Django said:

Personally, my interest for 1DX3 completely died down after R5 was rumoured  shortly after.

As for GFX100 vs 1DX3 vs XT4.. well 3 different sensor size cameras at 3 completely different budgets.

Again personally, above the $6K line I'd rather be looking at dedicated cine cams.. especially if RS, NDs, XLR etc are of importance to you.

XT4 definitely seems like best bang for buck at the moment, kinda like the new GH5.

But if you're into FF (even if just for stills) you still may wanna invest in another hybrid system.

If you are shooting video IMO you would have to be pretty stupid to buy a 1DXIII over the R5.

[Andrew Reid]

Are those stills frames or video frames?

I still think I'd prefer not to have to workaround 32ms rolling shutter on a £6000 pro DSLR but that's just me

14 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Because it has to focus as well, and it apparently can't do both at the same time.

But it can. Dual Pixel AF in 4K/60p in 1.3x crop mode.

The issue may be that the sensor goes into a different sampling mode in full frame 4K/60p and cannot remove the impact of Dual Pixel AF from the image (see 70D and Magic Lantern initial builds)

[Andrew Reid]

9 hours ago, gt3rs said:

On  tracking/panning fast object at 1/50 24fps you will not see rolling shutter because the motion blur will hide the RS issue. I track mtb at  (200-400 +1.4) 560mm and I have zero problem with RS. Is really unstable platform or back and forth movements that shows up. I have more problem on a horse show jumping parkour as you move back and forth and  the obstacles as they are vertical they tend to be bended....

Btw I did cover the 24h of Nürburgring for teams multiple years so I'm familiar with motorsport.

  

Very nice shot

What camera was it with?

[gt3rs]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Very nice shot

What camera was it with?

1Dx II, 200-400, 1/100

The above is a good example of one of my uses case by shooting video 5.5k at 1/100 I would be able to deliver some pictures at the same quality plus a short clip of that segment for the video. As the track is very long the car of the team that you follow pass by only every 8-9 minutes so I do two passes and move to another turn to get another perspective. Doing two jobs in one.

 

The mtb shoots are 5.5k screen grabs taken in resolve 5.5k timeline, only canon lut applied clog2 to rec709

 

For me I take AF with bad RS than just good RS. But they could at least offer you the choice by going “turbo” when in manual focus mode. For me I would prefer to have AF on 5.5k 60 than better rolling at 30..... but gettin AF at 60 would solve the issue at 30😂

I owned 1D iii, iv, x, xii and now xiii so the price that I used to pay for just a sports camera it give s me a good video camera too. 

[Andrew Reid]

Is it a RAW still then?

I can see the case for the 5.5K/60P RAW for short bursts but 20fps mechanical shutter in live-view would probably do the job  It has barely any blackout on the 1DX3.

Europe is a motorsport heaven. All sorts going on. Or at least there was. Planning to go to Le Mans in September once stuff is back on the calendar.

[gt3rs]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Is it a RAW still then?

I can see the case for the 5.5K/60P RAW for short bursts but 20fps mechanical shutter in live-view would probably do the job  It has barely any blackout on the 1DX3.

Europe is a motorsport heaven. All sorts going on. Or at least there was. Planning to go to Le Mans in September once stuff is back on the calendar.

A team normally have 1 photog and 1-2 video guys. Being able to do both at the same time will reduce the crew at least of 1 person. Being on the same spot and doing video and photo at the same time is a big cost saving and you can cover more locations and time of the day. As with car you normally pan with slower shutter speed most of the time then you can really have the best of both on on 1 or 2 passes.
As there are 160 teams the coverage that you get from TV is fairly limited so for sponsors and social media etc. most of the team have a media team dedicated. 

So delivering a high quality video and still out from the same 15-20 second clip is a big plus.  Btw is nothing new that photo was taken 2017 and near me was a video guy with a RED doing exactly this video and photo at the same time.... but he had to MF something that I don't even wanna try... 

[Django]

16 hours ago, Mokara said:

If you are shooting video IMO you would have to be pretty stupid to buy a 1DXIII over the R5.

Clearly not stupid if you are a pro sports action hybrid shooter like the above. Probably the best tool on the market for that.

[Adman]

I’m still on the fence as the FF 4K as an interview B cam & 50fps for gimbal would be perfect. Add to that the stills for time lapse. RS not an issue for most of what I do. But I’d be paying over the odds for the raw video and sports photography benefits I don’t need.

The question is - how long will I need to wait for the R5 or R6 and when they do finally come out, if the low light performance is worse than the 1dx and RS no improvement then might as well have gone for the 1dxmkii.

Question for those with the 1dxmkii. When you shoot 5.5K raw video, is this in clog2? Therefore, is the 4K proxy also clog2 rather than just clog?

Could be a good workout for 4K Clog2 and just bin the raw files to save on storage.

[Rinad Amir]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:18 PM, Mokara said:

 

If you are shooting video IMO you would have to be pretty stupid to buy a 1DXIII over the R5.

You must be fun around.

 

[gt3rs]

4 hours ago, Adman said:

I’m still on the fence as the FF 4K as an interview B cam & 50fps for gimbal would be perfect. Add to that the stills for time lapse. RS not an issue for most of what I do. But I’d be paying over the odds for the raw video and sports photography benefits I don’t need.

The question is - how long will I need to wait for the R5 or R6 and when they do finally come out, if the low light performance is worse than the 1dx and RS no improvement then might as well have gone for the 1dxmkii.

Question for those with the 1dxmkii. When you shoot 5.5K raw video, is this in clog2? Therefore, is the 4K proxy also clog2 rather than just clog?

Could be a good workout for 4K Clog2 and just bin the raw files to save on storage.

RAW does not have log, you select the log type that you want to process on your NLE, in resolve you can select the various logs including Clog2 or go directly to BT 709. So same clip can be outputed in Clog2 and Clog3 etc... the 500 II should be the same for RAW. If you select a log type on C500 II I expect that is metadata added to RAW that Resolve will pick up but you can change it at anytime. 
Proxy are affected by the log setting so if it is on you will get 4k 10bit h265 Clog if off you get 8 bit h264 no log.  But you will not get Clog2 in the proxy.

To make things more complex the log setting also control the RAW highlight protection and minimum iso. You have 3 settings log off (min iso 100, no hl protection, less noise) D+ (min iso 200 some hl protection, potentially more noisy) Log on (min iso 400, max hl protection, more noisy). 

In chapter 3.4 is explained how RAW, proxy and log settings affect the capture
https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/1d-x-mark-iii/resources/Canon_EOS_1DX_Mark_III_Video_White_Paper.pdf (joke mode on: I hope this link is allowed here 🙂 joke mode off)


At least I would wait for the official announcement that hopefully it would give some details like if it has crop mode or not etc... my plan is to wait a few review and if it is good add it remote camera for photo (mostly ice hockey net cam and horse show jumping)  and B or A video with the 1Dx being my main action camera and A or B video depending which one is better.