1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

[Mokara]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:02 AM, Django said:

Clearly not stupid if you are a pro sports action hybrid shooter like the above. Probably the best tool on the market for that.

Let me repeat, "If you are shooting video IMO you would have to be pretty stupid to buy a 1DXIII over the R5."

Even if you are shooting pro sports with a hybrid, the R5 is still going to be the better option, because it IS a dedicated hybrid whereas the 1DXIII is a stills camera with video functionality.

[Mokara]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Are those stills frames or video frames?

I still think I'd prefer not to have to workaround 32ms rolling shutter on a £6000 pro DSLR but that's just me

But it can. Dual Pixel AF in 4K/60p in 1.3x crop mode.

The issue may be that the sensor goes into a different sampling mode in full frame 4K/60p and cannot remove the impact of Dual Pixel AF from the image (see 70D and Magic Lantern initial builds)

Crop mode uses a lot less data though. It is the amount of data that needs to be processed that is the issue. You only have so much processing headroom and when it runs out some sort of compromise has to be made.

[Rinad Amir]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Let me repeat, "If you are shooting video IMO you would have to be pretty stupid to buy a 1DXIII over the R5."

Even if you are shooting pro sports with a hybrid, the R5 is still going to be the better option, because it IS a dedicated hybrid whereas the 1DXIII is a stills camera with video functionality.

How do you know this have you tried R5 yet?

Have you compaired them both in action?

I bought my 1DXmiii last year before R5 was announced and i do 90% video main selling point for me was no fans best af on market and internal 5.5k raw 

As for calling people stupid.... knowing your reputation on this forum says alot.

[zerocool22]

I hope there will be some footage online soon. Surely some youtubers have some pre-release models right now. 

[TheBoogieKnight]

6 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

I hope there will be some footage online soon. Surely some youtubers have some pre-release models right now. 

I don't think anyone has even touched one yet. Well maybe the peeps at Canon....

[androidlad]

59 minutes ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

I don't think anyone has even touched one yet. Well maybe the peeps at Canon....

Oh yeah it's already in the hands of many influencers/industry pros, who are anxiously awaiting the NDA lift.

[TheBoogieKnight]

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

Oh yeah it's already in the hands of many influencers/industry pros, who are anxiously awaiting the NDA lift.

Oh wow so you think this July 2nd rumour is true then?

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, androidlad said:

Oh yeah it's already in the hands of many influencers/industry pros, who are anxiously awaiting the NDA lift.

I can confirm Canon did not give me one

In my opinion they are hiding something and probably the usual shills will gloss over the shortcomings.

Rolling shutter, pixel binning, over heating, the lot probably.

[TheBoogieKnight]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I can confirm Canon did not give me one

In my opinion they are hiding something and probably the usual shills will gloss over the shortcomings.

Rolling shutter, pixel binning, over heating, the lot probably.

I'm sure it's on the way and just got held up in the post... 😄

I'm more worried about how useful the 120 is going to be given (unless it's a Quad Bayer sensor) you're probably gonna lose 4 stops of light over the 8k/30 with the skipping/binning and faster shutter speed. If this thing has a usable ceiling of 8,000 ISO (for example), you're down to 500 at 120p. Same as the S1 in 1080/120 I guess which needs lots of light and is often unusable indoors. I hope they add a crop mode. At least then you can get the same DOF without losing a ton of light.

 

[Andrew Reid]

4K/120p almost definitely won't be a regular recording mode for people, more an occasional shot.

4K/60p has to hold up well though, if they is also pixel binning, it depends on the standard of binning and methods used.

4K/24p from 8K readout will have rolling shutter issues, or else will have pixel binning like the higher frame rates, detrimental to image quality.

Optimal sensor for today is in the 24 megapixel region / 6K.

We are not yet at 8K without heavy compromises.

Don't get me wrong, I want this camera to be great.

At $4000 and with Sony A7S 3 on the horizon it has to be.

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I can confirm Canon did not give me one

In my opinion they are hiding something and probably the usual shills will gloss over the shortcomings.

Rolling shutter, pixel binning, over heating, the lot probably.

They probably only handed them out to folk who have a youtube presence for reviews, and to trusted pros for beta testing.

Your lack of a youtube presence probably bites you the butt in that regard. If you had an active channel with significant view you might get included in new release marketing activities more.

[Mokara]

55 minutes ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

I'm sure it's on the way and just got held up in the post... 😄

I'm more worried about how useful the 120 is going to be given (unless it's a Quad Bayer sensor) you're probably gonna lose 4 stops of light over the 8k/30 with the skipping/binning and faster shutter speed. If this thing has a usable ceiling of 8,000 ISO (for example), you're down to 500 at 120p. Same as the S1 in 1080/120 I guess which needs lots of light and is often unusable indoors. I hope they add a crop mode. At least then you can get the same DOF without losing a ton of light.

 

No one will be shooting at 120 unless they are doing slow motion, and if that is the case you don't have a choice.

Why would adding a crop mode increase the amount of light? 

[Mokara]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

4K/120p almost definitely won't be a regular recording mode for people, more an occasional shot.

4K/60p has to hold up well though, if they is also pixel binning, it depends on the standard of binning and methods used.

4K/24p from 8K readout will have rolling shutter issues, or else will have pixel binning like the higher frame rates, detrimental to image quality.

Optimal sensor for today is in the 24 megapixel region / 6K.

We are not yet at 8K without heavy compromises.

Don't get me wrong, I want this camera to be great.

At $4000 and with Sony A7S 3 on the horizon it has to be.

Assuming that 8K30p is the limit of what the camera can handle, then it is unlikely that 4K60p will just be an oversampled version of the same image since that would entail twice as much data. So that mode will almost certainly have significant compromises relative to 8K30p itself or 4K30p unless it is some sort of crop.

4K24p will probably not have RS issues. We can be pretty sure about that since the camera supposedly can handle 8K30p with DPAF, that means it should be a lot more capable than the 1DXIII in terms of processing power and bandwidth.

My guess is that a7SIII will be 4K only, no 8K and probably not a big oversample either. High spec for that camera will likely be 4K60p.

[Mokara]

On 6/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, Rinad Amir said:

How do you know this have you tried R5 yet?

Have you compaired them both in action?

I bought my 1DXmiii last year before R5 was announced and i do 90% video main selling point for me was no fans best af on market and internal 5.5k raw 

As for calling people stupid.... knowing your reputation on this forum says alot.

The fact that the video specs are a significant jump from the 1DXIII does not give you a clue?

Lets have this conversation again in a month or two and see who is right. I will be expecting some groveling from you

[TheBoogieKnight]

6 minutes ago, Mokara said:

No one will be shooting at 120 unless they are doing slow motion, and if that is the case you don't have a choice.

Why would adding a crop mode increase the amount of light? 

Well with a Quad Bayer you'd only be losing 2 stops so definitely more usable.

As to the crop, it means you can reduce focal length to equivalent framing before the crop, then reduce ISO and open the aperture to get equivalent depth of field/light gathering. Like how using a 50mm F2.8 lens on a 1.5 crop APS-C sensor is equivalent to 75mm F4 on a FF sensor.

So it doesn't increase the amount of light, it just allows you to keep it the same with equivalent framing, something impossible to do with a system using binning/skipping where you can only get more light in by reducing your DOF.

[gt3rs]

 

11 hours ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

I'm sure it's on the way and just got held up in the post... 😄

I'm more worried about how useful the 120 is going to be given (unless it's a Quad Bayer sensor) you're probably gonna lose 4 stops of light over the 8k/30 with the skipping/binning and faster shutter speed. If this thing has a usable ceiling of 8,000 ISO (for example), you're down to 500 at 120p. Same as the S1 in 1080/120 I guess which needs lots of light and is often unusable indoors. I hope they add a crop mode. At least then you can get the same DOF without losing a ton of light.

 

Why line skipping / binning would you loose light? You may get a less sharper picture, aliasing  but you don't lose light. 5.5k 24 fps exposed at 1/250 iso 400 f 2.8 will have the exact same exposure as 1080 120fps line skipping or binning at the same SS, aperture and iso.

Of course you need faster ss so instead of 1/60 for 30 fps you would need to go 1/250 for 120 but this is normal and nothing to do with the sensor type and for sure R5 that apparently will be FF 120 will not be any less usable than any other 120 fps camera. 

The point that crop is better in low light is normally the inverse as any Canon camera so far are more noisier at 1-1 pixel crop than scaled down or pixel binned or line skipping.
Just look at the C500 II as an example, the 1Dx III 120 is less sharp but way less noisy (2x crop vs FF).

If you want deeper DOF FF is not the camera for you, I want shallower DOF so I can have a look that is different than iPhone. Why do I mention iPhone because is a fairly capable HFR camera (btw I hate filming with phones and iPhone in particular as the workflow is just terrible. Why they don't offer a microSD just to sell you super expensive storage... yes I have an iPhone)

So personally I would prefer to shoot 4k 120fps FF with a 50 1.2 at 1.4 than 4k 2x crop at 24mm 1.4..... (ca same framing same exposure different DoF)

 

 

 

[UncleBobsPhotography]

32 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Why line skipping / binning would you loose light? You may get a less sharper picture, aliasing  but you don't lose light. 5.5k 24 fps exposed at 1/250 iso 400 f 2.8 will have the exact same exposure as 1080 120fps line skipping or binning at the same SS, aperture and iso.

Line skipping looses light compared with supersampling because fewer photo sites are used and therefore fewer photons are recorded. If you skip every second line, only half the photo sites will be recorded. Using supersampling you would average out 2 photo sites for each pixel (or something smarter) and would therefore get less noise. The exposure should be the same, but line skipping should in theory lead to more noise and moire/aliasing than supersampling. Cropping should in theory give the same noise as line-skipping, but potentially with less moire/aliasing. Have in mind that actual camera performance can differ a bit from how it should work in theory, which Sony has proven.

The word "binning" has been used both as "throwing the photo site in the bin" and "binning together the recordings of several photo sites". The first version is the same as line-skipping while the second is basically a crude form of supersampling.

 

EDIT: Your post was in relation to the line " I hope they add a crop mode. At least then you can get the same DOF without losing a ton of light.". The BoogieKnight is actually correct, because he mention the same DOF. Using a cropped readout and a faster and wider lens you would end up with cleaner image with the same DOF as lineskipping and a slower/longer lens.

[TheBoogieKnight]

18 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

 

Why line skipping / binning would you loose light? You may get a less sharper picture, aliasing  but you don't lose light. 5.5k 24 fps exposed at 1/250 iso 400 f 2.8 will have the exact same exposure as 1080 120fps line skipping or binning at the same SS, aperture and iso.

Of course you need faster ss so instead of 1/60 for 30 fps you would need to go 1/250 for 120 but this is normal and nothing to do with the sensor type and for sure R5 that apparently will be FF 120 will not be any less usable than any other 120 fps camera. 

The point that crop is better in low light is normally the inverse as any Canon camera so far are more noisier at 1-1 pixel crop than scaled down or pixel binned or line skipping.
Just look at the C500 II as an example, the 1Dx III 120 is less sharp but way less noisy (2x crop vs FF).

If you want deeper DOF FF is not the camera for you, I want shallower DOF so I can have a look that is different than iPhone. Why do I mention iPhone because is a fairly capable HFR camera (btw I hate filming with phones and iPhone in particular as the workflow is just terrible. Why they don't offer a microSD just to sell you super expensive storage... yes I have an iPhone)

So personally I would prefer to shoot 4k 120fps FF with a 50 1.2 at 1.4 than 4k 2x crop at 24mm 1.4..... (ca same framing same exposure different DoF)

 

 

 

Hmm maybe I'm confused. As far as I saw it, if it's 2X skipped and binned, 1/4 of the light is reaching the same sensor area (fewer photo sites are used) compared to oversampling from the full sensor. I realise that each individual pixel is getting the same amount of light with skipping/binning, but you're losing the oversampling which would be taking 4 pixels and combining them into one, effectively giving two stops lower noise.

 

I can get that exact same lower noise benefit by shooting with a 2 stop wider aperture. If I do this with skipping/binning, I'd reduce my DOF 2 stops. If I do this with a crop, I have to step back (or use a wider focal length) which means I get that DOF back to where it was.

 

Of course oversampling has other advantages, but you're going to lose them with both binning/skipping and a crop.

[androidlad]

16 minutes ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

Hmm maybe I'm confused. As far as I saw it, if it's 2X skipped and binned, 1/4 of the light is reaching the same sensor area (fewer photo sites are used) compared to oversampling from the full sensor. I realise that each individual pixel is getting the same amount of light with skipping/binning, but you're losing the oversampling which would be taking 4 pixels and combining them into one, effectively giving two stops lower noise.

 

I can get that exact same lower noise benefit by shooting with a 2 stop wider aperture. If I do this with skipping/binning, I'd reduce my DOF 2 stops. If I do this with a crop, I have to step back (or use a wider focal length) which means I get that DOF back to where it was.

 

Of course oversampling has other advantages, but you're going to lose them with both binning/skipping and a crop.

I know what you menat, but it's worded incorrectly, what you wanted to say is it would lose SNR.

Note that pure pixel-binning actually increases SNR (2x2, 3x3 etc. you see on smartphone sensors).

[gt3rs]

You don't lose light as if you lose 2 stop of light then the image will be underexposed by two stop at the same settings ss, aperture and iso between oversampling vs line skipping/binning.  If you are oversampling or line skipping the gain on the sensor is the same and so is the aperture and ss for that exposure. 
In theory you can get more noise with line skipping/binning as oversampling masks some of the noise but at pixel level the noise is exactly the same. 

On the 1Dx III 1080 FF 120fps binned is for sure not more noisier than 5.5k FF at pixel level, of course if you scale done the 5.5k is sharper and less noisy. So I expect the R5 to be similar  but who knows