1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

[androidlad]

[Danilo Del Tufo]

On 6/16/2020 at 4:44 PM, androidlad said:

I've tested on my iMac Pro, CRM files from 1Dx Mark III, and they struggle and fans of the iMac come to kick in. It's still not optimized well.

[Andrew Reid]

The entire Premiere architecture probably needs dumping in the bin like Apple did with Final Cut Pro.

Going to be painful days ahead for Adobe if they can't get performance on par with Resolve for modern formats.

[PaulUsher]

9 hours ago, Danilo Del Tufo said:

I've tested on my iMac Pro, CRM files from 1Dx Mark III, and they struggle and fans of the iMac come to kick in. It's still not optimized well.

Yikes. Just when it feels like the battle is won, there’s another one... We may finally get super cameras (look at the three on that list!) yet we’ll still need external recorders / transcoding? Even H.265 seems too much for NLEs right now. Let’s hope the software catches up fast!

[Video Hummus]

I don’t think it’s a software problem. It’s a hardware one. H.265 or AV1 won’t become mainstream or useable unless there is some serious hardware encoding and decoding acceleration AND for all the major profiles.

FCPX has been overhauled under the hood on using Metal 2. I think we are going to see a major push by Apple for performance improvements and integration with their accelerator cards and maybe future acceleration chips in MacBook Pros (think next gen T3 chip).

It also appears camera companies have chosen HEVC as their next codec of choice future generation cameras...especially since its in Canons new cameras.

[Platto]

 

I downloaded few clips of internet from 1dx mark iii 120p vfr files and when i imported them into the Premiere Pro it was interpolated as 4:2:0 10bit H265 ,is not meant to be 4:2:2 10bit ?

Also did quick test on Crm Raw and my machine dint get along well as for Resolve it ran smoothly at 24fps at native resolution.

 

[MeanRevert]

Blackmagic Davinci Resolve 16.2.3 just released with notes:

What's new in DaVinci Resolve 16.2.3

Support for Dolby Vision 4.1 CM algorithm to generate v2.9 trims from v4.

Option to export a Dolby Vision v2.9 XML from a v4 project.

Support for RED SDK 7.3.2.

Faster Metal decoding for Canon EOS-1D X Mark III and EOS R5 clips.

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, Platto said:

 

I downloaded few clips of internet from 1dx mark iii 120p vfr files and when i imported them into the Premiere Pro it was interpolated as 4:2:0 10bit H265 ,is not meant to be 4:2:2 10bit ?

Also did quick test on Crm Raw and my machine dint get along well as for Resolve it ran smoothly at 24fps at native resolution.

 

All the 1Dxiii frame rates are 4:2:2 h265 10bit if LOG is ON if LOG is OFF they are 4:2:0 H264.....

Did you check the metadata with a tool ?

[Trek of Joy]

CR says the R5/R6 announcement is set for July 9. They're also dropping a slew of lenses. Everything being announced on 7/9 and a photo:

Canon EOS R5

Canon EOS R6

Canon RF 50mm f/1.8 IS STM

Canon RF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM

Canon RF 85mm f/2 Macro IS STM

Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM

Canon RF 600mm f/11 DO IS STM

Canon RF 800mm f/11 DO IS STM

Teleconverter RF 1.4x

Teleconverter RF 2x

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-is-the-canon-eos-r5-and-canon-eos-r6-along-with-the-announcement-date/

 

 

[PaulUsher]

10 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I don’t think it’s a software problem. It’s a hardware one. H.265 or AV1 won’t become mainstream or useable unless there is some serious hardware encoding 

I fear you’re probably right. I quizzed Carlos Quintero about his H.265 workflow and he said only his new Mac Pro could handle it without transcoding. This is a bummer because I can’t afford to upgrade our cameras AND our macs. 

The jury is still out but I’m pretty sure we’ll be upgrading to the R5 and/or R6, however we’re going to wait to see if NLE updates will be able to really handle these new cameras first. We’re in no rush, and we shoot with Ninja Vs anyway for monitoring and ProRes, but not being able to enjoy the new cameras to their fullest extent, and record internally when we want to, kind of makes a mockery of upgrading (for our needs at least)...

Makes me wonder whether we may as well stick with the R Classic + Ninja for the next 6-12 months, upgrade the Macs first, then pick up the R5 when the prices drop a little... But for those with a bigger budget, upgrading everything now could be a sound investment to cover the next five years of production, maybe longer. Would we ever need anything more?

[PaulUsher]

2 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

 

Interesting that the R6 is front and centre. Glad to see the body is modelled like the R5 and not the squished RP. Maybe it's not so low end after all.

[Video Hummus]

27 minutes ago, PaulUsher said:

I fear you’re probably right. I quizzed Carlos Quintero about his H.265 workflow and he said only his new Mac Pro could handle it without transcoding. This is a bummer because I can’t afford to upgrade our cameras AND our macs. 

The jury is still out but I’m pretty sure we’ll be upgrading to the R5 and/or R6, however we’re going to wait to see if NLE updates will be able to really handle these new cameras first. We’re in no rush, and we shoot with Ninja Vs anyway for monitoring and ProRes, but not being able to enjoy the new cameras to their fullest extent, and record internally when we want to, kind of makes a mockery of upgrading (for our needs at least)...

Makes me wonder whether we may as well stick with the R Classic + Ninja for the next 6-12 months, upgrade the Macs first, then pick up the R5 when the prices drop a little... But for those with a bigger budget, upgrading everything now could be a sound investment to cover the next five years of production, maybe longer. Would we ever need anything more?

Worst thing you could do is bog down your production with footage your computers can’t handle. That causes a ripple effect along the whole production line. If your clients are happy with what you are shooting now, they will be happy with it for 6-12 months until you can have an editing rig that can handle H265 and the RAW that will be coming out of the R5.

[PaulUsher]

19 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Worst thing you could do is bog down your production with footage your computers can’t handle. That causes a ripple effect along the whole production line. If your clients are happy with what you are shooting now, they will be happy with it for 6-12 months until you can have an editing rig that can handle H265 and the RAW that will be coming out of the R5.

Thanks man. Yeah if it ain't broke dont fix it... I think I'm gonna put my GAS in check and watch the R5/6 release and testing phase at a safe distance, taking notes from the sidelines.

[Rinad Amir]

9 hours ago, Platto said:

 

I downloaded few clips of internet from 1dx mark iii 120p vfr files and when i imported them into the Premiere Pro it was interpolated as 4:2:0 10bit H265 ,is not meant to be 4:2:2 10bit ?

Also did quick test on Crm Raw and my machine dint get along well as for Resolve it ran smoothly at 24fps at native resolution.

 

Hmm...must be a bug! Canon 1DX Markiii films everything in 10bit 4:2:2 regardless of resolution from hd to 4k (Log must be enabled) in mov container H265.

Maybe the files you got are 8bit 4:2:0 Is the image flat looking? I cannot test it as i cancelled my adobe sub, dm me i will send u some clips of 120p 4:2:2 😊

[Trek of Joy]

1 hour ago, PaulUsher said:

I fear you’re probably right. I quizzed Carlos Quintero about his H.265 workflow and he said only his new Mac Pro could handle it without transcoding. This is a bummer because I can’t afford to upgrade our cameras AND our macs. 

The jury is still out but I’m pretty sure we’ll be upgrading to the R5 and/or R6, however we’re going to wait to see if NLE updates will be able to really handle these new cameras first. We’re in no rush, and we shoot with Ninja Vs anyway for monitoring and ProRes, but not being able to enjoy the new cameras to their fullest extent, and record internally when we want to, kind of makes a mockery of upgrading (for our needs at least)...

Makes me wonder whether we may as well stick with the R Classic + Ninja for the next 6-12 months, upgrade the Macs first, then pick up the R5 when the prices drop a little... But for those with a bigger budget, upgrading everything now could be a sound investment to cover the next five years of production, maybe longer. Would we ever need anything more?

I plan to order the R5 as soon as its available. I shoot a lot of stills and I'm juggling a7r's and the EOS R (guess I'm hooked on R bodies LOL!) with the NinjaV. For me raw will be for shorter projects and postcard landscape shots (I shoot travel content for tourism marketing), otherwise 10-bit internal or into the Ninja for Prores is what I'm planning on doing. IBIS, 45mp stills, and the speed upgrades (12/20fps!) along with 4k 120p and all the other improvements *hopefully* means I can offload all my other cameras and consolidate to just the R5/R combo.

I'm betting the R5's price will drop in the next year, so I'm just going to bite the bullet. Its expected to be in short supply for awhile and not ship until Sept. Fingers crossed I can get in on the first wave. Hopefully the R6 shipping sooner will slow the initial demand enough for me to get in the queue for the first run. I have the latest 15" i-9 MBP, which hasn't had any issues with 10-bit h265 or the giant 4k files from the R. But most of my stuff is 2 minutes or less.

Macs are in a weird spot now too with the supposed switch from Intel to ARM, what's that going to mean for FCPx moving forward?

As always YMMV.

Chris

[Adman]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:42 PM, gt3rs said:

I do mostly sports/action so not sure is helpful my experience.

I use 1Dx III quite a bit on a Ronin S and if I want shallow DOF I use 50 1.2 and 24 1.4 so the mode that I pick is 5.5k 24 or 25 and on a gimbal I never notice the RS.
I did track so far Parkour, MTB, Horse, rollerblades and never notice RS issue. If I don't need shallow DOF and/or need wider I use the 16-35 and f5.6 or above so I then switch to 5.5k 60 fps to have slow motion.
In case I need both I use 4k 60fps crop.
As you have the 1DC the weight size is about the same so you know what it means on a gimbal plus you are used to MF so using 1Dx III 5.5k 50-60 is not an issue for you.

The big question is how are the 4k FF 25,60 and 120 modes of the R5... if they are very good I think the R5 is even better than the 1Dx III....... if the FF 4k modes are binned and not super quality then the 1Dx III is better especially if you need 50-60 fps....

R5 advantage over 1Dx III (mostly guesses😞
- less weight
- flippy screen (not too helpful on a gimbal but is good to have)
- zebra
- 8k vs 5.5k
- quite cheaper

disadvantages:
- less battery life
- 60fps max out at 4k, if binned it will be less quality too
- if it has a 1-1 crop it will be 2x
- larger file size in RAW
- no RAW > 30 fps
- probably no dual card video recording (on 1Dx III the only dual recording mode is when in RAW.... as it does RAW in one card and whatever 4k mode you select on the other (from 8bit h264 to 10 bit h265 LOG).

If you are not in a hurry I would wait the first reviews hopefully will be in July .... and if you are undecided maybe rent both.... 

I’ve got the 1DXmkiii on a weekend test drive from Canon.

When you use it on the Ronin S do you get camera functionality ie start/stop and focus from the gimbal when plugged in via the usb c cable?

When I attach the usb c cable to the Ronin S I lose all camera fucntionality. Can’t change ISO, shutter speed, can’t record, magnify image etc.

[PaulUsher]

 

1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

I plan to order the R5 as soon as its available. I shoot a lot of stills and I'm juggling a7r's and the EOS R (guess I'm hooked on R bodies LOL!) with the NinjaV. For me raw will be for shorter projects and postcard landscape shots (I shoot travel content for tourism marketing), otherwise 10-bit internal or into the Ninja for Prores is what I'm planning on doing. IBIS, 45mp stills, and the speed upgrades (12/20fps!) along with 4k 120p and all the other improvements *hopefully* means I can offload all my other cameras and consolidate to just the R5/R combo.

I'm betting the R5's price will drop in the next year, so I'm just going to bite the bullet. Its expected to be in short supply for awhile and not ship until Sept. Fingers crossed I can get in on the first wave. Hopefully the R6 shipping sooner will slow the initial demand enough for me to get in the queue for the first run. I have the latest 15" i-9 MBP, which hasn't had any issues with 10-bit h265 or the giant 4k files from the R. But most of my stuff is 2 minutes or less.

Macs are in a weird spot now too with the supposed switch from Intel to ARM, what's that going to mean for FCPx moving forward?

As always YMMV.

Chris

Great to know the i-9 MBP can handle H265! (Maybe we should be drawing up a list?)

Thanks Chris, and yeah, if like you I was looking to offload other cameras and consolidate an RF kit (and shoot any kind of RAW) then I'd probably be up for taking the plunge now too, but for my mileage (EOS R + Ninja + older iMac - plus I largely use crop lenses 18-35 / 50-100 so FF is not an absolute must) I think it might be best for me to wait a bit - I might just let you fellas report on any R5 teething problems and suggest the best edit set up before I bite the bullet  In return I can offer 18-months worth of experience on how best to limit Canon's rolling shutter artefacts heheh - let's pray the R5/6 can at least improve on that (they should, with the addition of IBIS at least counteracting some jitter-induced jello...) - but as the jury's still out on that then it's another reason I might prefer to wait and see... Excited for the announcement though!

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, Adman said:

I’ve got the 1DXmkiii on a weekend test drive from Canon.

When you use it on the Ronin S do you get camera functionality ie start/stop and focus from the gimbal when plugged in via the usb c cable?

When I attach the usb c cable to the Ronin S I lose all camera fucntionality. Can’t change ISO, shutter speed, can’t record, magnify image etc.

Not supported yet start/stop or any functionality over the usb. You should drop a msg on dji ronin s forum there is a thread about 1dx iii support....

 

I set that I can start stop with the shutter that is easier to reach

[gt3rs]

14 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I don’t think it’s a software problem. It’s a hardware one. H.265 or AV1 won’t become mainstream or useable unless there is some serious hardware encoding and decoding acceleration AND for all the major profiles.

FCPX has been overhauled under the hood on using Metal 2. I think we are going to see a major push by Apple for performance improvements and integration with their accelerator cards and maybe future acceleration chips in MacBook Pros (think next gen T3 chip).

It also appears camera companies have chosen HEVC as their next codec of choice future generation cameras...especially since its in Canons new cameras.

Yep both Nvidia and Intel QuickSync currently they don’t support h265 4:2:2.... Nvidia 20xx platform can do 4:2:0 and 4:4:4 but not yet 4:2:2

Hopefully with more camera using it they will improve.

I’m sure even software only the NLE could optimize more.

On windows / resolve a i7-9900k can do it software only.

[currensheldon]

Definitely appears the R6 will be second in command to the R5 - a powerful camera but just without 8k and high megapixel count. It may ultimately be better for video shooters with lower megapixel, probably better noise performance, probably downsampling from 6k sensor to 4k, IBIS, 4k 60fps, 10-bit. Basically a 1DX III but without the 5.9k raw (which is fine to lose, really, for 90% of shoots). Might be a much better B-Cam to C300/C500/C200 than the R5 will be.

I just hope they get their gunshot-loud shutter under control. Give me a Panasonic or Fuji sounding and feeling shutter, pleeeeaaaase.