1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

[PaulUsher]

@Andrew Reid I’ve had to find workarounds for the very similar rolling shutter on the EOS R over the last 18 months. Aside from accepting defeat and using some kind of rig (I built a chest pod) a very effective hack for Canon’s brand of RS jello is to try a lens with solid image stabilisation that really sticks for static shots but drifts smoothly for pans (without stutter and hiccups).

Have you still got your old Tamron 24-70 VC? It really hammers the jello right back even with 50mm+ focal lengths (but you’re stuck with skew with fast pans) - in my testing it’s still the most effective lens for this. It’s not ideal - the Canon RS is inexcusable, especially at the price you’re paying - but if it means you can enjoy the positives of the camera then it’s definitely worth giving a go. (side note: the IS on the RF glass destroys rolling shutter warp for anyone interested, though that’s not going to help you with the 1D...)

Also I recommend avoiding Canon’s DIS in modes that are prone to rolling shutter as that makes it worse in my experience (warping artefacts especially in the tilt axis). How is the RS in FHD modes? Can you report if there any 1080 modes that downscale from UHD - that’s my thing (I’m so 2012...)

Looking forward to seeing your footage from the 1DXIII. 

[Mokara]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Eh, still sounds like a square peg with its edges roughly trimmed to be jammed in a round hole to fit. The shiny things on the 1DXIII still seem tarnished at closer inspection.

Im hoping the R5 will change that. I really hope that camera can deliver on the expectation it is building.

I still hoping Panny will announce a GH6 camera in the coming months. I see a lot of value in MFT and am sticking with the format regardless if I have a FF camera.

Based on the public specs for the R5 I would guess that it has a new processor, I am guessing a Digic 9, and it must be capable of better performance than the 1DXIII. They claim that it can do 8K30p with AF, that means there is enough computational power to handle it, quite a bit more than the 1DXIII. Worst case scenario would be 8K with RS of about 33 ms. Lower resolutions than 8K should be able to do higher frame rates with less RS.

[Snowbro]

50 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Based on the public specs for the R5 I would guess that it has a new processor, I am guessing a Digic 9, and it must be capable of better performance than the 1DXIII. They claim that it can do 8K30p with AF, that means there is enough computational power to handle it, quite a bit more than the 1DXIII. Worst case scenario would be 8K with RS of about 33 ms. Lower resolutions than 8K should be able to do higher frame rates with less RS.

But doesn't the 1DX traditionally have dual processors, one entirely dedicated to AF? Even with a new generation processor in the R5, you're talking 8K instead of 6 and one less CPU, it would have to be a pretty huge leap in generational technology. It's always possible that Canon held back though & they rarely rectify it after release c200 ii anyone? Lol

[Andrew Reid]

The 1D X III has a single processor which is much faster than the dual processors in the prior models.

Canon explains this in their white paper.

They don't however explain what core count the CPU has. Probably a lot more than two.

[douglaurent]

Do I see this correctly?  My 1DX2 does 4K 60fps with autofocus, and the 1DX3 does not?  I gladly keep the old cam.

[Snowbro]

8 minutes ago, douglaurent said:

Do I see this correctly?  My 1DX2 does 4K 60fps with autofocus, and the 1DX3 does not?  I gladly keep the old cam.

I'm pretty sure it still does 4k 60 & AF with around the same crop as before. It just cant do 5.5k 60p RAW with AF.

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, douglaurent said:

Do I see this correctly?  My 1DX2 does 4K 60fps with autofocus, and the 1DX3 does not?  I gladly keep the old cam.

In 1-1 pixel crop (ca 1.34 crop) you get AF. You get all the 1Dx2 modes but in 10bit LOG. Also the DPAF is a big improvements over 1Dx II with all the new AF zones/sizes and eye tracking. For action video I like the wide zone a lot.

As reality check here the long list😀 of FF no-crop 4k 60fps cameras with useable AF:

- C500 ii

- C700FF 

with crop or non ff:

- C300 iii

- C200

- FX9 (is the least cropped of all)

- 1Dx II

- 1Dx III

 

[ade towell]

14 hours ago, Snowbro said:

@Andrew Reid I hear that the 1DX III has 12 stops of dynamic range in RAW. Canon USA replied to my question in their video & said that it is 12 stops in RAW. From what I understand, regular CLOG can get around 12 stops, but CLOG 2 can get up to 15 stops or so (canon claimed) on certain sensors. I saw a few videos where people putting the 1DX III footage into Resolve and it automatically converts it to CLOG 2, which they say has helped them get better DR than using Canons tool. 

So what do you believe? Can it get more than 12 stops in RAW with resolve? Or does this camera have a few less stops of DR vs a C200/300 etc? I wish cinema5d would test it on their new system, the pocket 6k gets 11.9 stops of DR or something like that. I wonder if this 1DX RAW is similar or better. 

From the looks of it the DR on the 1DXmk3 is a bit less than the Panasonic S1H which was measured at 12.7 stops DR by Cinema 5d. This was using 10 bit log on the Panasonic compared to RAW on the Canon - will be interesting to see  if the upcoming RAW update will increase the S1H's DR even more

[gt3rs]

@Andrew Reid in your article you mention 1.5 crop not sure how you get to that as 5472 / 4096  = 2886 / 2160  = 1.336 

Also I think you should mention that is your machine (hackintosh) that seems to have problem with Resolve  as others with even below specs than yours can playback realtime.

 

[Andrew Reid]

So the 4K crop modes are 1.33 not 1.5? I thought this time it was using the S35 standard in 4K crop mode - like every other camera. But no, they kept the weird 1.33x crop? Even though it has a full frame mode?

I have more than one machine. The other one is a Windows machine with RTX 2080 Ti. I'll try it on that.

I don't have much appetite for 2400Mbit/s file sizes in RAW though to be honest.

500Mbit/s on the 1D C was bad enough with MJPEG.

So mainly a 10bit H.265 camera for me. I think in that respect, GFX 100 is much better.

[Mokara]

12 hours ago, Snowbro said:

But doesn't the 1DX traditionally have dual processors, one entirely dedicated to AF? Even with a new generation processor in the R5, you're talking 8K instead of 6 and one less CPU, it would have to be a pretty huge leap in generational technology. It's always possible that Canon held back though & they rarely rectify it after release c200 ii anyone? Lol

The way Canon have usually segmented the FF line is as follows:

1D cameras: 2 current processors to handle image processing and 1 older processor to handle DSLR focusing/metering (three processors in total)

5D cameras: 1 current processor to handle image processing and 1 older processor to handle DSLR focusing/metering (two processors in total)

6D cameras: 1 current processor to handle image processing as well as DSLR focusing/metering (one processor in total)

The processing capability in the three models accounts for their relative capabilities. The 1D has more complex electronics so it costs the most, while the 6D is a cut down camera to reduce manufacturing cost, allowing it to be offered at a lower price. Along with all sorts of materials and mechanical compromises as well of course.

They deviated from that formula with the 1DXIII by having a single processor (not clear if there is a separate processor for DSLR focusing/imaging since they don't usually mention that one in their promotional material). My guess is that the Digic X in it is basically two Digic 8 processing units with some additional encoding unit all mashed into a SoC. 

[gt3rs]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

So the 4K crop modes are 1.33 not 1.5? I thought this time it was using the S35 standard in 4K crop mode - like every other camera. But no, they kept the weird 1.33x crop? Even though it has a full frame mode?

I have more than one machine. The other one is a Windows machine with RTX 2080 Ti. I'll try it on that.

I don't have much appetite for 2400Mbit/s file sizes in RAW though to be honest.

500Mbit/s on the 1D C was bad enough with MJPEG.

So mainly a 10bit H.265 camera for me. I think in that respect, GFX 100 is much better.

How could they get 1.5 crop with a 1-1 pixel read out with a 20mpix sensosr....

[Andrew Reid]

By cropping slightly more and upscaling slightly to 4K.

[Mokara]

2 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

How could they get 1.5 crop with a 1-1 pixel read out with a 20mpix sensosr....

Extrapolation. Remember, the image you see is a processed image, not what the sensor sees.

[gt3rs]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

By cropping slightly more and upscaling slightly to 4K.

Wasn't your complain on the M6II that is upscaling and now you want that.... you can do in post if you want but you cannot do the inverse go get DCI 1-1

Comparing to 1D C datarate .... 5.5k RAW vs 4k 8bit  1800 Mbits vs 500 Mbits. But  ALL-I 4k is 470 Mbits vs 500 Mbits and the MJpeg are much faster to edit than h265 ... 

 

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

From the looks of it the DR on the 1DXmk3 is a bit less than the Panasonic S1H which was measured at 12.7 stops DR by Cinema 5d. This was using 10 bit log on the Panasonic compared to RAW on the Canon - will be interesting to see  if the upcoming RAW update will increase the S1H's DR even more

I posted already this is not a scientific test so hard to make conclusion. How can we be sure that the exposures are the same and in what mode the 1Dx III was (D+?, LOG?) . I'm not sure where you get most DR on RAW... iso 100, iso 200 with D+  or iso 400 with LOG.... highlight recovery in RAW ISO 400 LOG ON in theory should be better but overall DR from usable shadow to highlight not sure... hope somebody does a scientific test in various modes. Also normally on Canon it seems that 10bit LOG has some NR applied so you tend to get a bit more usable DR..... this seems to be true for C500 II and C300 III not sure about 1Dx III.

I don't expect to be better than the S1h but to be fairly close.

[Andrew Reid]

The Canon apologists are out in force!

470Mbit vs 500Mbit. Still huge.

And the Long GOP data rate is almost as big if you want to avoid 32ms rolling shitter.

[FranciscoB]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

So the 4K crop modes are 1.33 not 1.5? I thought this time it was using the S35 standard in 4K crop mode - like every other camera. But no, they kept the weird 1.33x crop? Even though it has a full frame mode?

I have more than one machine. The other one is a Windows machine with RTX 2080 Ti. I'll try it on that.

I don't have much appetite for 2400Mbit/s file sizes in RAW though to be honest.

500Mbit/s on the 1D C was bad enough with MJPEG.

So mainly a 10bit H.265 camera for me. I think in that respect, GFX 100 is much better.

So you're finding that raw is too much for the majority your needs and a good 10bit file is a great for most shoots? 😄

[gt3rs]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Canon apologists are out in force!

 

Please don't as I think I'm more than fair in my assessment see my list of negatives and I think I did contribute with mostly facts based on owning the camera: 

If my contribution is not welcome here just ban me but don't call me canon apologist, I learn a lot in this community and I hope I did contribute a bit....

 

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

And the Long GOP data rate is almost as big if you want to avoid 32ms rolling shitter.

230 Mbits for 10 Bit Long GOP imo in 2020 is quite ok

[Andrew Reid]

20 minutes ago, FranciscoB said:

So you're finding that raw is too much for the majority your needs and a good 10bit file is a great for most shoots? 😄

No that's not what I'm saying.

The image quality of RAW is not too much for me.

The file sizes are ridiculous.

Canon don't have a proper RAW codec.

RED do.

So on the 1D X III you may as well not use it and stick to the 10bit. The shadows are very grainy and noisy anyway when you try to extract the extra dynamic range in the RAW files. The noise has a compressed look to it too.

17 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Please don't as I think I'm more than fair in my assessment see my list of negatives and I think I did contribute with mostly facts based on owning the camera: 

If my contribution is not welcome here just ban me but don't call me canon apologist, I learn a lot in this community and I hope I did contribute a bit....

 

230 Mbits for 10 Bit Long GOP imo in 2020 is quite ok

230Mbit in 4K/60p 10bit?

Don't think so.

In 24p maybe, but then you have the rolling shutter to contend with.