S1/Z6/XT4 - Best all-rounder for video including documentary work?

[James_From_Raglan]

Hi Everyone.

I've been scouring every corner of the internet for days now trying to figure out which camera to go for and I'm pulling my hair out.

I'm looking for a versatile mirrorless camera for a mix of documentary and narrative work.

I'm confident that all the options I'm looking at are suitable for the kind of narrative, commercial and music video work I do.

However I also need something that I can use for documentary work - largely handheld. Sometimes filming actuality, following subjects around. Sometimes nice cinematic b-roll. I like to keep DOF relatively shallow.

My priorities:

- Good IBIS
- Good lowlight
- Ability to record and monitor audio
- Good for photography
- A good native zoom lens for general documentary work

Secondary considerations:

- 10- bit internal would be nice
- Autofocus - AF is something I've never used in the past. Being trained in natural history filmmaking a decade ago - the idea of using AF for video was laughable. I'm unsure whether I'm missing a trick here. Is some AF now truly good enough to accurately track and keep focus on subjects at shallow depths of field?

----

Right now it's a real toss up between the Panasonic S1, Nikon Z6 and the Fuji XT4

For a while I was pretty set on getting the Panasonic S1. I like the idea of a bigger camera for handheld work and the IBIS looks great. Internal 10 bit also appealing. But once I add the costs of the firmware upgrade and an expensive L-series zoom, the whole kit will cost around €3200, instead of around €2300 for the XT4 or €2100 for the Z6.

I considered the Gh5 and A7iii too but I'm leaning away from them because of the bad low light and m4/3 mount on the gh5 and the lack of 10-bit recording (even externally) on the a7iii.

I'm leaning towards full frame options for what they offer in terms of shallow DOF and low light capabilities.

I have a set of old Nikon AIS primes which I love using and plan on adapting these to whatever setup I have.

Any help here would be much appreciated!

[Andrew Reid]

11 minutes ago, James_From_Raglan said:

I've been scouring every corner of the internet for days now trying to figure out which camera to go for and I'm pulling my hair out.

My priorities:

- Good IBIS
- Good lowlight
- Ability to record and monitor audio
- Good for photography
- A good native zoom lens for general documentary work

Secondary considerations:

- 10- bit internal would be nice
- Autofocus - AF is something I've never used in the past. Being trained in natural history filmmaking a decade ago - the idea of using AF for video was laughable. I'm unsure whether I'm missing a trick here. Is some AF now truly good enough to accurately track and keep focus on subjects at shallow depths of field?

----

Right now it's a real toss up between the Panasonic S1, Nikon Z6 and the Fuji XT4

AF is a real shot getter. Every time I go without it for run & gun I regret it as a shot sails past the frame out of focus.

The S1 would be your first choice if it had decent autofocus.

The Nikon Z6 and Fuji X-T4 are much better choices in that regard and the X-T4 has some very good native zooms for documentary... the 18-55mm 2.8-4 and 18-135mm both superb with very good (and silent) AF. The native zoom lenses for the Z6 are much more expensive. It does however have very good AF with the Fringer EF adapter, so you can use something like the Canon 24-105mm F4 on it, no problem, or a Sigma zoom.

No 10bit on the Z6.

Lowlight is good on both the Z6 and X-T4.

I'm leaning towards X-T4 personally. More features than the Z6 and you can make up the sensor size difference with 1 stop faster glass.

[James_From_Raglan]

The autofocus does sound appealing.

Is it mostly for quite fast action that it comes in useful?

My application is more likely going to be "cinematic" documentary work where the most I'll do is a tracking shot at a steady distance from subject, or a handheld interview setup, perhaps a walk and talk.

I won't be filming much sport or fast paced action actuality.

And is the S1's autofocus just not up to scratch? No sign of firmware fixes?

I've just been looking at the XT4 again too. That 16-80mm lens looks good to me but I wonder will it be effective in low light? 

[MrSMW]

XT4, Fringer adapter and Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 (which if you set the 1.29 crop is the FF equiv in 4k of a 35-68mm lens).

Seems to be a couple of issues with the IBIS currently, but pretty confident that will be resolved in firmware pretty soon.

These Fujis like most cameras tend to have a few niggles when they first come out, but unlike many other companies, Fuji usually fix things fairly quickly and even take their products to another level.

I'd be tempted to add the battery grip to the above to make it more ergonomically friendly, especially for longer use, but you could get away with a basic hand grip.

I don't have one by the way as I prefer to use my XT3 with monopod, but that is just personal choice more than anything.

You have said you like the idea of a bigger body etc, so I think the battery gripped XT4 is possibly your best option right now and would be my pick without question.

[James_From_Raglan]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I saw another thread where you were tossing up between the S1 and the XT4. What's pushed you away from the s1?

That 18-35 at 1.8 is pretty impressive but I worry that it doesn't offer enough for length for documentary work. I suppose I could punch in using a crop mode - does the XT4 have this feature? I've been assuming so as I'm used to working on the a7sii which has a crop mode. 

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

XT4, Fringer adapter and Sigma 18-35mm f1.8

Seems to be a couple of issues with the IBIS currently, but pretty confident that will be resolved in firmware pretty soon.

These Fujis like most cameras tend to have a few niggles when they first come out, but unlike many other companies, Fuji usually fix things fairly quickly and even take their products to another level.

I'd be tempted to add the battery grip to the above to make it more ergonomically friendly, especially for longer use, but you could get away with a basic hand grip.

I don't have one by the way as I prefer to use my XT3 with monopod, but that is just personal choice more than anything.

You have said you like the idea of a bigger body etc, so I think the battery gripped XT4 is possibly your best option right now and would be my pick without question.

 

[Andrew Reid]

I am still with the S1, it's a great camera. But the unreliable AF makes it unsuited to a wide range of work, and harms the stills prospects too. Take for example, shooting through a window. It would focus on a spec of dust on the glass and not the scene behind it.

Say your documentary has a through the car or train window moment... Shot lost, or frustrating in the moment.

The S1 is best as a manual focus cine camera, small form factor. For your manual focus needs it is superb.

But for decisive moment stills and unplanned documentary clips you need the effortless speed of Fuji's phase-detect AF.

[MrSMW]

@James_From_Raglan

Well I do weddings rather than 'documentary' work though I work in a 'documentary' style as a hybrid wedding/photographer, ie, direct very little other than a handful of posed couple shots and some family stuff.

I use the Sigma 18-35 as my indoor lens actually but use the Tamron 45mm f1.8 for everything else and my feet as my zoom.

You can't punch in with Fuji though other than the 1.5x 'crop' equivalence plus the 1.18 4k crop and with the XT4 (but not 3) you can manually set a 1.29 crop at all times to equate to the digital stabilisation.

I've toyed with both of your other options but in the end dismissed both for a variety of reasons though they would be my alternatives if I had to switch.

That Tamron though works more like an 80mm FOV (45 x 1.5 x 1.18) on my XT3 and has OIS, but I still prefer the rock solid monopod approach, partly so I can shoot stills and video at the same time.

Needs the Fringer though which adds to the size/weight, but I don't mind that and there are some native mount but 3rd party options such as Viltrox and later this year, Tokina.

Fuji just suits me as a system and the only real issue I have with it is I am not a fan of any of the lenses for video, especially the faster f1.4's and 1.2

I mostly love what I can get straight out of camera with minimal to zero grading.

I just like it. 

[James_From_Raglan]

34 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am still with the S1, it's a great camera. But the unreliable AF makes it unsuited to a wide range of work, and harms the stills prospects too. Take for example, shooting through a window. It would focus on a spec of dust on the glass and not the scene behind it.

Say your documentary has a through the car or train window moment... Shot lost, or frustrating in the moment.

The S1 is best as a manual focus cine camera, small form factor. For your manual focus needs it is superb.

But for decisive moment stills and unplanned documentary clips you need the effortless speed of Fuji's phase-detect AF.

I think I'm still getting to grips with changes in the way people shoot in the last few years, during which I've been obliviously getting on with shoots paying no attention to any changes in tech - to my detriment.

As a result the idea of using auto focus for video work is still quite foreign to me.

I wouldn't think to use auto focus if shooting out a train window, I'd just check focus before I record.  I have a lot of practice with manual focus and trust myself to get this right. But maybe the difference is that I'm imagining a slightly more slow-paced shoot rather than a fast moving run and gun situation.

I actually think that a manual focus cine camera is more what I'm after, in which case maybe the S1 is right for me. Am I also correct in assuming it offers a considerable improvement in low light capabilities?

With regards to the auto focus stuff I'm also wary that I may be missing a trick - I've never used good AF and perhaps I just don't realise how helpful it is.

The kind of documentary content I produce would probably be best described as festival fare. Do other cinematographers shooting this kind of documentary content use AF?

[James_From_Raglan]

33 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

@James_From_Raglan

Well I do weddings rather than 'documentary' work though I work in a 'documentary' style as a hybrid wedding/photographer, ie, direct very little other than a handful of posed couple shots and some family stuff.

I use the Sigma 18-35 as my indoor lens actually but use the Tamron 45mm f1.8 for everything else and my feet as my zoom.

You can't punch in with Fuji though other than the 1.5x 'crop' equivalence plus the 1.18 4k crop and with the XT4 (but not 3) you can manually set a 1.29 crop at all times to equate to the digital stabilisation.

I've toyed with both of your other options but in the end dismissed both for a variety of reasons though they would be my alternatives if I had to switch.

That Tamron though works more like an 80mm FOV (45 x 1.5 x 1.18) on my XT3 and has OIS, but I still prefer the rock solid monopod approach, partly so I can shoot stills and video at the same time.

Needs the Fringer though which adds to the size/weight, but I don't mind that and there are some native mount but 3rd party options such as Viltrox and later this year, Tokina.

Fuji just suits me as a system and the only real issue I have with it is I am not a fan of any of the lenses for video, especially the faster f1.4's and 1.2

I mostly love what I can get straight out of camera with minimal to zero grading.

I just like it. 

Interesting that you can't punch in with the Fuji. I've become really accustomed to this feature on the a7sii. Is it a full frame thing? And do you know if the S1 has this feature?

I think our applications might be slightly different but I can imagine situations where your setup would work very well for me.

Where does the extra 1.18 crop come from in your equation? 

I'm still leaning a bit towards the S1 but the Fuji does represent a significant price difference...

[Andrew Reid]

AF doesn't need to be continuous it can just speed up your shot setup. Very valuable for decisive moment video. A blink and you miss it shot can be got where a manual focus lens would be just too slow, even if you have high confidence of focus from the high res EVF or screen.

You can punch in plenty on the Fuji X-T4.

There is the punch-in focus assist zoom for manual focus of course, not to be confused with changing the crop mode.

And unlike most cameras it works during recording and not just before in live-view.

The 1.5x crop sensor over full frame allows you to use a Speed Booster for 1.0x crop, then remove it for 1.5x crop. Same as having full frame and APS-C on the A7S II with one prime. Just factor in extra cost of the adapters.

Then 1.85x crop like a GH5S is available in the menus. Further to that, you can apply DIS for extra stabilisation to go a bit beyond 2x crop.

And a further crop in post from 4K can take you even further in.

And all that from one prime focal length!

[MrSMW]

OK, punch in possibly means different things to different people...

I thought the OP meant 'crop in' as push a button and record a tighter frame which is something say a FF Nikon can do by selecting DX.

The Fuji has a mild 'crop in' function for stills with it's Sports Finder mode which acts like an optical viewfinder with a 16mp crop centre but otherwise yes, you can 'punch in' for checking focus purposes.

The 1.18 crop is if you use 4k recording ie, slightly tighter crop with video at any given focal length compared with shooting stills.

I shoot 4k partly so I can crop in post, but rarely do other than straightening horizons, warp stabiliser etc and because IMO it's a better starting point even though my output is almost always 1080.

Andrew is your man re. the S1.

[James_From_Raglan]

39 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

OK, punch in possibly means different things to different people...

I thought the OP meant 'crop in' as push a button and record a tighter frame which is something say a FF Nikon can do by selecting DX.

The Fuji has a mild 'crop in' function for stills with it's Sports Finder mode which acts like an optical viewfinder with a 16mp crop centre but otherwise yes, you can 'punch in' for checking focus purposes.

The 1.18 crop is if you use 4k recording ie, slightly tighter crop with video at any given focal length compared with shooting stills.

I shoot 4k partly so I can crop in post, but rarely do other than straightening horizons, warp stabiliser etc and because IMO it's a better starting point even though my output is almost always 1080.

Andrew is your man re. the S1.

This is actually what I was meaning by punch-in, sorry for being confusing.

I find it really useful, especially when shooting with primes. I've become accustomed to putting APS-C crop mode on for a tighter shot.

So the XT4 doesn't have a function like this?

I don't anticipate always shooting in 4k so relying on being able to push in in post isn't really an option for me. Plus it's more an in-the-moment framing versatility function that a post versatility function for me.

That said, I've been looking a bit more into the XT4 and the XT4 with the Fujinion 16-55 2.8 seems like a good combo. Do you have any experience with that lens?

[James_From_Raglan]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

XT4, Fringer adapter and Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 (which if you set the 1.29 crop is the FF equiv in 4k of a 35-68mm lens).

Seems to be a couple of issues with the IBIS currently, but pretty confident that will be resolved in firmware pretty soon.

These Fujis like most cameras tend to have a few niggles when they first come out, but unlike many other companies, Fuji usually fix things fairly quickly and even take their products to another level.

I'd be tempted to add the battery grip to the above to make it more ergonomically friendly, especially for longer use, but you could get away with a basic hand grip.

I don't have one by the way as I prefer to use my XT3 with monopod, but that is just personal choice more than anything.

You have said you like the idea of a bigger body etc, so I think the battery gripped XT4 is possibly your best option right now and would be my pick without question.

Is the Fringer adapter a cheaper version of a metabones? Does it give you an extra stop in the same way?

[Andrew Reid]

The punch in option is about 2x crop on the X-T4, so that is further into your prime than 1.5x crop on A7S II.

If you have a 35mm wide angle lens on the A7S II you get 50mm in crop mode.

On the X-T4 due to the smaller sensor compared to full frame, you'd need a wider lens than 35mm to get the same equiv. focal length to full frame.

I.e. you'd need 24mm * 1.5x = 35mm

The 2x crop mode this 24mm lens would become a 48mm FOV.

So it's the same situation as the A7S II just different choice of lens.

(Or the same choice of lens if you use a Speed Booster)

Confused yet?

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, James_From_Raglan said:

Is the Fringer adapter a cheaper version of a metabones? Does it give you an extra stop in the same way?

No the Fringer adapter isn't a cheaper Metabones Speed Booster adapter.

It is a very high quality autofocus adapter like the Sigma MC-11 or Metabones Smart AF adapter for E-mount.

It does not have any glass in it so your 35mm lens on the X-T4's APS-C size 1.5x crop sensor has the field of view of a 50mm on full frame.

[MrSMW]

PS: the 1.18 crop mode I mentioned is when/if shooting 4K 50 or 60p.

I use a lot of slow mo such shoot that by default so always considering the crop/look.

Yes, had the 16-55. Sold it. Love/hate relationship with that lens...

[noone]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

If you have a 35mm wide angle lens on the A7S II you get 50mm in crop mode.

On the X-T4 due to the smaller sensor compared to full frame, you'd need a wider lens than 35mm to get the same equiv. focal length to full frame.

I.e. you'd need 24mm * 1.5x = 35mm

The 2x crop mode this 24mm lens would become a 48mm FOV.

So it's the same situation as the A7S II just different choice of lens.

(Or the same choice of lens if you use a Speed Booster)

Confused yet?

The Sony can actually use a 35mm prime lens as a variable 35-100mm lens if you use clear zoom. (35-200 if you use digital zoom but above 2x it shows).    I wish all companies would do this as it would be a killer feature on a higher/more modern spec camera than an A7sii

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

PS: the 1.18 crop mode I mentioned is when/if shooting 4K 50 or 60p.

I use a lot of slow mo such shoot that by default so always considering the crop/look.

Yes, had the 16-55. Sold it. Love/hate relationship with that lens...

An extra crop mode can be turned on in all video modes on the X-T4, so it's not limited to just 4K/60p or slow mo 240

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Yes, had the 16-55. Sold it. Love/hate relationship with that lens...

Ha! Know what you mean there. Almost TOO sharp.

[Andrew Reid]

30 minutes ago, noone said:

The Sony can actually use a 35mm prime lens as a variable 35-100mm lens if you use clear zoom. (35-200 if you use digital zoom but above 2x it shows).    I wish all companies would do this as it would be a killer feature on a higher/more modern spec camera than an A7sii

Clear zoom is useful for C-mount lenses on the Sony A7 series.

Maintains a nice 4K image even in 2x crop mode.

However for further than that you may as well crop in post. You start losing detail in-camera and in-post, so best to leave it as a last resort editing choice, rather than bake the longer shot into your footage.

[MeanRevert]

After watching that BTS video from VICE News, that Canon C300 setup looks like the one to have for that kind of shooting.